Update : 1914 DWM Artillery luger project, now with Art. bbl.

[DonVoigt]

Updated 9-28-2016 , barrel replaced, see post #9 below for pictures.

Thanks to a heads up from Keoki, I was able to snag this original(but rebarreled) 1914 DWM L P 08!

A quick re-cap on Artillery luger production by mfg and date:

Quantities are approximate - so please take them as a guide- not gospel.

DWM:
1914 - 1,000
1915 - 15,000
1916 - 20,000
1917 - 100,000
1918 - 25,000

Erfurt:
1914 - 25,000

So as you can see, the 1914 DWM is by far the scarcest.
A complete mismatched DWM 1914 can go for $5k, a matching one $10K or more, depending on condition.

This speciment is numbered 1008, metal parts are largely original to the 1914 luger, with the side plate an un-numbered replacement. A P 08 type rear sight was dovetailed into the original rear artillery toggle to provide a rear sight. The barrel was replaced with a 4" 7,65mm unit.

The work would have been done in Suhl, as evidenced by the E/N and E/J proofing on the M. Moeller barrel. The barrel is also relined to 7,65mm. These proof markings came into use in 1939 with the Proof law of that year. They would not have been used after the fall of the Reich in 1945.

7,65mm lugers were used by various non-military units of the 3rd Reich, such as the railroad, post office, customs, forestry, etc. They could have been sold to privileged individuals also.

Purposes of this post are to document the as received condition of this pistol and to provide a base line for comparison after restoration to its original artillery configuration.

Enjoy the pictures and now I'm on to the "restoration" project.

[DonVoigt]

A few more pictures of the above L P08.

[Arizona Slim]

Thanks for the info and photos Don, lots of useful information here and a worthwhile project for sure.
Just wondering, is there any record that DWM may have put the relief cut for the artillery rear sight on any of their receivers but were not used as Artilleries such as Erfurt did to many of their receivers?

Lon

[sheepherder]

So the toggle has a dovetail cut? What do you plan on doing with that???

The Möller barrel has the 7.65 land dimension - 7.6 - I've never seen that before. Being 7.65 and 100mm is kind of rare too.

Kind of neat.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Arizona Slim

Thanks for the info and photos Don, lots of useful information here and a worthwhile project for sure.
Just wondering, is there any record that DWM may have put the relief cut for the artillery rear sight on any of their receivers but were not used as Artilleries such as Erfurt did to many of their receivers?

Lon

Relief cut on other than artillery by DWM- no.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

So the toggle has a dovetail cut? What do you plan on doing with that???

The Möller barrel has the 7.65 land dimension - 7.6 - I've never seen that before. Being 7.65 and 100mm is kind of rare too.

Kind of neat.

Yes, the Moeller bbl is kind of special.

You can see how the sight is dovetailed in the 9th picture down in the first post.

I plan to mill the "leaf" away(leaving the dovetailed part in place) and then re-contour the toggle to original outline, then re-finish.
Well, the entire piece will eventually be re- rust blued(or maybe not!).

[KABAR2]

Looks like the starts of a great project , you could also TIG the bit you leave in the dove tail and it would disappear polished out it should come out looking good rust blued....

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by KABAR2

Looks like the starts of a great project , you could also TIG the bit you leave in the dove tail and it would disappear polished out it should come out looking good rust blued....

Thanks,
good idea. I've milled away the sight and one can see the dovetail lines as expected.

If I or someone I knew could do fine tig welding, that would be an option.

[DonVoigt]

Update 9-28-2016

Barrel replaced with original L P08 bbl # 723 a; rear sight on toggle removed.

[Edward Tinker]

really excellent - I think an attempt to restore (as much as possible) is one of those times it needs to be done.


I was thinking after 1917 or so that DWM had the relief cut for the rear sight, but if just Erfurt, its faulty memory on my part. Guess I should look it up, so maybe it'll stick.

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Ed.
According to all references I have and have read, only Erfurt had the sight relief cut on all production from 1916/17 through 1918.
DWM continued to produce Art. receivers with the cut, and others without the cut.

In addition, 1914 Artillery luger serial numbers reported have all been from "0" to 1600 or so; and have the triple C/S inspection.

Now the big question is whether or not to have the piece re-finished by one of the genuine experts in finishing that can make it look "right" in rust blue and straw. I'm "worried" about the light strikes on both the left chamber serial number and right chamber inspection markings, I'm "afraid" they will nearly disappear with any surface prep.

I'd be interested in opinions on whether or not to re-finish; it actually does not look too bad as it is- so it will stay that way for at least a while.

It has been suggested that the numbers could be "re-stored" and the barrel even re-numbered; but I have a philosophical or maybe a moral problem with that much restoration.

[kurusu]

To me it deserves a full restoration.

As for moral issues, as long as you don't fool anyone, it's a non issue.

[Eugen]

Don, your new and improved artillery Luger looks like a nice project. As for restoration, I don't know much (although that never stops me from offering my opinion), but I would suggest you do a complete restoration. I mean like the whole enchilada.

[hayhugh]

And then you can buy it at RIA as a "found behind a rafter in a barn" in the south of France in 10 years.......

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

To me it deserves a full restoration.

As for moral issues, as long as you don't fool anyone, it's a non issue.

Kurusu,
Thanks for the comment; the question is not if "I" fool someone, but down the line "someone" will or may try to fool a buyer that does not do his homework using this and other online resources.

If I wanted to fool anyone, I would not have started this thread.

I could always engrave the back of the side plate with the fact, and date of restoration. Perhaps not a bad idea; or some other spot on the "inside", I guess a side plate is too easy to change.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by hayhugh

And then you can buy it at RIA as a "found behind a rafter in a barn" in the south of France in 10 years.......

Unless it gets fully documented on these fora as a rebuild. Those that don't pay attention get what they deserve.
Word of order being.

Caveat emporium.

[KABAR2]

I tend to agree with Don on restoration I used to do quite a few Antique flint locks reconverting them from percussion.... I even aged the parts to match the patenia of the gun BUT I would always leave a "tell" when I welded a new pan on the plate I would never hide the weld on the inside of the plate this way upon closer inspection it would be known it was a reconversion.... I think re-numbering is a little too far... It's like a fellow I knew who would enhance Arisaka rifles by acid etching the mum back on so he could sell it for more money ... Was it a "restoration"? Yes but not done for the right reasons ... The things we do to restore can taint the collector hobby.... That 4000 dollar colt single action with the cavalry length barrel? Was it stretched? Yeah people will take a later barrel bore out the original turn down part of the new barrel slide the old barrel on and TIG it.... It happens these days more and more

[KABAR2]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Thanks,
good idea. I've milled away the sight and one can see the dovetail lines as expected.

If I or someone I knew could do fine tig welding, that would be an option.

See if there is a good machine shop in your area ask if they have a welder who does TIG , if they do ask to see samples of his work most welders who do it all the time can lay a fine tight bead explain what you want done and you should have good results .... I have a TIG welder and do passable work but I don't do enough of it to stay practiced so I wait till I have a few large projects to work on before I attempt the small stuff.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by KABAR2

See if there is a good machine shop in your area ask if they have a welder who does TIG , if they do ask to see samples of his work most welders who do it all the time can lay a fine tight bead explain what you want done and you should have good results .... I have a TIG welder and do passable work but I don't do enough of it to stay practiced so I wait till I have a few large projects to work on before I attempt the small stuff.

The key here is "good job", it is not so bad that I want to take a chance on someone making it worse, instead of better.

It will always be restored anyway, with the dovetail clearly visible from the side when dis-assembled.

I'm just going to leave it alone.

[Eugen]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I'm just going to leave it alone.

Shucks, Don, and I wanted to follow your restoration story and accompanying pics.

Do you plan to shoot it?