Getting a Luger Home...?

Okay, maybe it may be too simplistic; but here goes :


You have found a luger in person or on an auction site and finally get it home for inspection.


Okay, now what ???


Now what do you look for to make sure it's authentic, original finish, matching parts, etc. ?


Hoping some of the Forum "expereinced hands" can put a check-list of your methodologies together. I understand each type of luger is different and has its own unique features and characteristics...


But your check-lists would help some of us novices...

[Doug]

My standard approach is to do the following.

1) Disassemble the gun and check if all parts match. Check the inside of the side plate for the first two digits of the serial number. This will be one digit higher on WWII guns.

2) If you are buying a rust blued gun I use a strong light to see what the patina looks like.

For salt blued guns smell it for cold blue (it has a different odor). Also all parts should be fairly uniform in color. Also check to see if the milling marks are well defined. Use a 10x loop to examine proofs for signs of buffing.

3) Check to see if the inside is in the white (rust blued only)

4) Check to make sure the breach block isn't cracked.

5) Lastly be objective, don't talk yourself into a compromise. If something just looks wrong research it and prove it either right or wrong. I find myself sometimes trying to find reasons to keep a gun that my gut tells me has been "worked" on.

[schwob]

If I may, let me add my .02. Several years ago I went to examine an 1906 American Eagle. The owner agreed to nothing, not to a take down, not even to remove the grip panels. I walked away! Point, if you can't satisfy yourself, don't compromise, walk away!

i agree with doug's post. break it down, check to be sure all the numbers match and look to be "untouched", check grips. check bore.


if you feel like you got a deal...STOP there and enjoy. do not over research or have other pro's check it out because odds are they will find something wrong with it. fact is, there are just too many lugers and too much time has passed by and they have passed through so many hands to expect to find an authentic, untouched, matching luger @ a great price. only if it came from the original owner would i trust it's authenticity, and then if it was a war used gun who knows if it might have been reworked or fixed during the war? we just don't know and that is a big loop hole current dealers will use for explaining restamped parts or unnumbered grips. i wouldn't even feel secure if it came from some of the "big time dealers". funny things happen when money gets involved. so, if it's matching and you feel good about the price...leave it be. that's just my 2 cents worth.

I agree with Tom C! If it is a reasonable price, then enjoy it. An expensive gun needs to be examined really close and if not, then enjoy it for what it is! A piece of history with wonderful details, factory reworks are to be expected from a "war" quote unquote, blah, blah, meaning to me, it has seen use.


When they start saying it is a 95% and up piece, pull out the fine tooth comb, IMHO


Eduaro the great philosopher

[Luke]

Every Luger I buy, no matter how lowly, I take apart and examine with a fine toothed comb.


I make high-resolution scans, at up to 1200dpi, of every marking on the gun. I record every detail, making special note of ANYTHING out of the ordinary and investigating until I am satisfied that I know the reason. That's how I learn.


Never take anything for granted in this business.

My $.02.

it is sometimes easier to not stress out about something when you might have paid a bit above a shooter price and then get all unbent over it.


I took mine all apart last night and fine toofed it, and will again later,


Ed

[Luke]

the grips or inside of the stock!


A note or bring back paperwork.


I was looking at a bring back gun the other day from Vietnam and was really excited about it. The history of where it came from, who had it, etc., is very cool!


Ed

luke, i too love to take my guns apart, closely inspect and catologue it. but let's have a reality check. it's the old saying "you get what you pay for" and "buyer beware" that should be the motto for all beginner collectors that can't spend $1000 a gun or go to all the big gun shows to scout the tables. i've heard too many stories and had a few myself where the "luger elves" have had their hands at work. fact is 1) lugers have been around for a long time and passed through many hands, 2) nobody really knows the true history of a luger(some exceptions), 3) newbies are the easiest to fool, 4) there are some greedy people out there with little or no ethics. with all that said, if you paid $600 -$700 for a shooter w 85% blue and it looks all matching, be happy and enjoy it. because there is a good chance somewhere down the line an "elf" might have played with it. but like i've said before, if you got a good price on it, it looks good, and you're happy that's all that matters. enjoy the luger for all it is, not by someone else's standard of "all matching, 95% original finish, etc...". because if that's how you ultimatly grade you level of satisfaction in luger collecting you will ultimatly be very dissaponted - unless you have tons of cash to invest to be a "player".


just my 2 cents worth for the newbies.

[BILL]

Since a standard three day inspection period is usually allowed one might not have time to do all the research described in the 'fine tooth comb' approach. I know that people find things that are questionable years after acquiring a pistol.

[Luke]

Tom Collins,


I AM a realist . . . not in need of a reality check. My comments were not offered as a formula for everyone else; I simply stated my approach which suits my needs and interests just fine.


Sure, I know that flaws may be found years later, but hard scrutiny in the 3 day period has paid off for me more than once. In 3 days I probably know everything I will ever know about a given Luger.


Luke

[Big Norm]

For a while, I thought that I would get into the collecting of Kreighoff Lugers. I got a 1936,1937, 1943 and a P-Code w/side inscription. I had read all the books and had a number of other Lugers. Then I heard a lot of talk about fake Kreighoffs. So I tried to get "expert" opinions. I physically showed them to Shattuck, Ken Karsted, Doug Smith and some local Luger collectors. Nobody could say for sure that they had monkeyed with. But nobody would say that the guns had not been messed with. So I just decided that the guns where authentic and poured myself a cold one. But the uncertainy of the number and quality of the "experts" left me a bit cold on Keighoffs and other rarish Lugers and I have not bought any more. In some cases, there is no certainy. The rarer the gun, the less help you can get and the more uncertainy there is.


The point is, if you have done all you can then be happy.

Big Norm

[Dan Clemons]

Based on the amount of money invested, I think it is a good idea to look your purchase over and make your decision whether to keep it or not. I am trying to develop a keen eye for detail. Lugers will tell their story to you if you can speak their language. Here is what I have learned so far:


1. The wear on the grips should match the wear on the rest of the gun. If not, you have an issue.


2. The blue on the barrel should match the blue on the rest of the gun. The hash mark under the barrel should look like it was made with one whack of a chisel. Most often the font that struck the numbers on the gun should be the same. What is the condition of the bore? It should look as old as the rest of the gun.


3. If the mark left by the safety should be silver and not blue. If there are different shades of blue, there is an issue. Rust spots do not turn blue with age. If rust blued, correct me if Iâ??m wrong, there should be no blue neither at the tip of the barrel nor in the breach. Correct?


4. Strawing is a hard one for me. I have seen some parts blued when they should be strawed. The magazine release for example. If there is pitting on the strawed parts and no pitting on the rest of the gun, that would raise an issue. Sanding and buffing can soften the numbers and proofs to the point you can barely read them. A stamp pushes the metal up and buffing brings it back flush with the surrounding area.


I know this is not adding much to what you already know but I would like to know what is important to the experts here on the forum when you look at a gun. I guess what we are trying to find out is whether or not is has been recently fiddled with or not. Were also trying to determine whether it is a shooter or an all-original investment grade piece. In addition, is this an original mint or recently re-worked mint?


I would like to ask Ron Wood, Big Norm, Ralph, Tom Heller, Hugh, and others to share with us what they look for in an original Luger?


Thanks,


Dan

[Big Norm]

Dan,


The very first thing that I look at is the Locking Bolt. It is a tough part to get absolutely right. Then I look at whether or not there is what some people on this forum have called Sperm Whale oil coating on the strawed parts. But this may not be there because some prior owners may have cleaned it off. It is a sort of clear varnish like coating. If the strawed parts look good then I look at the serial numbers. A Luger that is minty will have these numbers just jump out at you with their crispness. I wish that I could show you a 1938 Mauser S42 that I have. The serial numbers just smack me in the face with their crispness every time I look at it. There is holster wear, but the gun is real.


Aside from that, I pretty much look at a Luger like others on this forum. And I am learning more everyday. I pretty much stick to the WW1 Lugers and don't stray a lot. The WW2 Lugers seem to have a lot more to them regarding bluing and when the serial number were actually struck during manufacture.


I had a 1916 rebarreled navy once and a guy showed me the checkering on the toggle under a eyeglass. He explained to me that the checkering was just too perfect for an authentic rear toggle. I could not see it with my naked eyes but it was clear under a good eyeglass. I still have to do some research on that subject.


I got a 1906 Swiss Cross in Shield that I thought was minty. Everything looked great at the gun show. Sperm Whale Oil, beautiful bluing, great grips, perfect mag, serial numbers crisp and so forth. But then I took it out in the daylight and I noticed that the straps showed more wear than I would have reasonably expected. I keep looking at that Luger and wondering. But I still like it.


I don't buy guns that I notice pitting on so I can't say anything about bluing over rust pitting.

Big Norm

[Dan Clemons]

You said what I was hoping others would say. Authenticity is in the details that are often overlooked.


I liked what you had to say.


Dan

[Big Norm]

Yah, I use a restorer who has shown me a few details that at first glance, I never noticed. Like have you ever noticed that on the receivers rear rabbit ear rails, on the right side the grind marks go vertical. The left side goes horizontal.

Big Norm