Martz Lugers

sheepherder · 12-17-2016, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTR04

Here's one:

http://www.checkpointcharlies.com/ec...onversion.html

Hmmmm...It has MSTR - Martz Safety Toggle Release???

I wonder where the JVM is...

DonVoigt · 12-17-2016, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Hmmmm...It has MSTR - Martz Safety Toggle Release???

I wonder where the JVM is...

Well, it comes with "provenance"- I've been meaning to ask Charlie what the provenance is. He has several odd lugers with "provenance"!

cirelaw · 12-17-2016, 11:53 AM

I have personally known Charlie for close to twenty years~ He is a spirited gentleman and will talk to you by phone if you have questions. He recently overhauled his site adding better descriptions and picture. He will go to heaven! Eric

Lugerdoc · 12-17-2016, 12:52 PM

If the JVM is present, it's usually on the top of the mid toggle link in place of the original manufactores logo. Charlie's pistols with providence are from the collection of a current movie star's collection. For more info ask Charlie. TH

G.T. · 12-17-2016, 02:48 PM

Not all of John's Guns have the MSTR installed... It was a development that he designed early on and incorporated in the majority of his creations, and all with the modification are so marked... It is a difficult bit of machining, and was patented by John and never released to any individual or company, although some tried to convince him otherwise... The JVM in an oval was a much more random mark, and although his pistols may or may not have the JVM, usually they have one or the other marks, or both? Although I can't verify this, I would be suspicious of any gun credited to him, not marked with one or the other?... Almost all of the magazine bottom I made for John, were marked with the JVM in oval and I did it right in my little shop!...
John did make several guns for friends and better customers that were just nice Lugers.. He made me several shooter Navies out of rejected JVM parts and although not collectible as to variation... (1937 Imperial Navy!

) They were nice shooters..I'm sure some of these were/ are being viewed as legitimate JVM variation guns... I also received a custom .30 Target Luger from John with MSTR and marked JVM where the lanyard loop used to be, it is one of a kind!!... The majority of his later guns were his own variations of, baby, .45, and 38 super, in all configurations of barrel length and sights... not to mention carbines of several types... And not to forget baby P.38's, and P.38 carbines.... His work was ALWAYS impeccable, and many times just the lack of quality will tip you off to a JVM fake...I miss him, he was one of my mentors, and treated me better than my family did thru some very rough times in my life... Best to you all, til....lat'r....GT.....

Ron Wood · 12-17-2016, 03:11 PM

On some guns the JVM in an oval is on the frame under the side plate. That is where it is on my Martz Baby.

DonVoigt · 12-17-2016, 05:25 PM

GT,
How or what does the MSTR do?
I know what it says, but how does it operate?

G.T. · 12-17-2016, 06:33 PM

MSTR....Martz Safety Toggle Release, If you are right handed... it allows you to load a new full mag on a locked back toggle without changing your shooting hand grip had, AND release the toggle to charge the weapon and at the same time, taking it off safe?.... It works off the safety bar, and an added "S" shaped link fit / machined in the frame, connected to the hold open and basically pulls the hold open lever down, when you take it off safe... It works great!!! But, is really a can of worms to make, machine, & install? Although I know he did many when he first invented it, I don't think it was ever a profitable venture for him, or anyone... It was just something unique to JVM, and so it will probably remain so... best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

DonVoigt · 12-17-2016, 08:59 PM

Thanks Gt.
I'd like to see a picture of how it is fitted to a luger is someone has one and would
take some pictures.

sheepherder · 12-17-2016, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Thanks Gt.
I'd like to see a picture of how it is fitted to a luger is someone has one and would
take some pictures.

There's a couple pics in John Walters' The Luger Book (pg 161)...

Also, although it didn't make any sense to me, the patent number is 3,956,967 if you want to look it up...

Edward Tinker · 12-18-2016, 12:21 AM

MOVED THIS TO ITS OWN THREAD

https://www.google.com/patents/US3956967

sheepherder · 12-18-2016, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

MOVED THIS TO ITS OWN THREAD

I'll post a link to the pic in the book...maybe y'all can figure it out...I can't...

DonVoigt · 12-18-2016, 02:00 AM

Thanks guys.
Like most patents and patent drawings- it makes my head spin.

It is a cool idea, and basically very simple- when one moves the safety lever and the safety bar rises, it connects to an added lever that pulls the hold open down.

Mr. Martz thought that having to pull the toggle back to release the hold open was a "defect", I'm not sure; but his MSTR would sure make it easier to close the toggle on an empty magazine when the mag is latched in place.

I can see how he does it, but it would be a lot, a huge lot, of work to accomplish.

The member that wanted a .45 Marz should jump on that one at CC's; they don't grow on trees and no more will be made. RIP - JVM.

sheepherder · 12-18-2016, 11:05 AM

There was a link to a .45 Martz Luger at iCollector, I copied the pic of the toggle logo - A scriptive 'JVM' and stamped caliber, but it's not the familiar oval & stamped block lettered JVM...

Maybe an early .45 conversion???

Here it is -

http://www.icollector.com/John-Martz...iber_i11028533

sheepherder · 12-18-2016, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

It is a cool idea, and basically very simple- when one moves the safety lever and the safety bar rises, it connects to an added lever that pulls the hold open down.

My thought was that it pushed the back of the hold-open up and that cantilevered the front end down...But it would require a bit of strength to overcome the magazine spring, and pushing down on the mag button wouldn't do that any good either...

I'm probably wrong, as I can read blueprints OK but patent drawings/descriptions are just coffee shop scriblings...

Dwight Gruber · 12-18-2016, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Mr. Martz thought that having to pull the toggle back to release the hold open was a "defect", I'm not sure; but his MSTR would sure make it easier to close the toggle on an empty magazine when the mag is latched in place.

I have a dim recollection of an explanation that the recoil spring is so heavy on the .45 conversions that it is extraordinarily difficult to pull the toggle to release the holdopen; the MSTR was designed to alleviate this.

--Dwight

DonVoigt · 12-18-2016, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

My thought was that it pushed the back of the hold-open up and that cantilevered the front end down...But it would require a bit of strength to overcome the magazine spring, and pushing down on the mag button wouldn't do that any good either...

I'm probably wrong, as I can read blueprints OK but patent drawings/descriptions are just coffee shop scriblings...

Pushing the back of the hold open up would engage it; this device has to pull it down.

As far as the amount of pressure to move it- there must be some mechanical advantage built into the mechanism; it would not take much of a lever to move the hold open down the 1/10" or so it needs to disengage.

DonVoigt · 12-18-2016, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

I have a dim recollection of an explanation that the recoil spring is so heavy on the .45 conversions that it is extraordinarily difficult to pull the toggle to release the holdopen; the MSTR was designed to alleviate this.

--Dwight

thanks Dwight, I was not considering the .45, just in general.

I bet the mainspring was a bear to get into the frame also!

12-17-2016, 12:52 PM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	If the JVM is present, it's usually on the top of the mid toggle link in place of the original manufactores logo. Charlie's pistols with providence are from the collection of a current movie star's collection. For more info ask Charlie. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

12-17-2016, 02:48 PM	#5
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Johns guns! Not all of John's Guns have the MSTR installed... It was a development that he designed early on and incorporated in the majority of his creations, and all with the modification are so marked... It is a difficult bit of machining, and was patented by John and never released to any individual or company, although some tried to convince him otherwise... The JVM in an oval was a much more random mark, and although his pistols may or may not have the JVM, usually they have one or the other marks, or both? Although I can't verify this, I would be suspicious of any gun credited to him, not marked with one or the other?... Almost all of the magazine bottom I made for John, were marked with the JVM in oval and I did it right in my little shop!... John did make several guns for friends and better customers that were just nice Lugers.. He made me several shooter Navies out of rejected JVM parts and although not collectible as to variation... (1937 Imperial Navy!) They were nice shooters..I'm sure some of these were/ are being viewed as legitimate JVM variation guns... I also received a custom .30 Target Luger from John with MSTR and marked JVM where the lanyard loop used to be, it is one of a kind!!... The majority of his later guns were his own variations of, baby, .45, and 38 super, in all configurations of barrel length and sights... not to mention carbines of several types... And not to forget baby P.38's, and P.38 carbines.... His work was ALWAYS impeccable, and many times just the lack of quality will tip you off to a JVM fake...I miss him, he was one of my mentors, and treated me better than my family did thru some very rough times in my life... Best to you all, til....lat'r....GT.....

12-17-2016, 03:11 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	On some guns the JVM in an oval is on the frame under the side plate. That is where it is on my Martz Baby. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-17-2016, 05:25 PM	#7
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	GT, How or what does the MSTR do? I know what it says, but how does it operate? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-17-2016, 06:33 PM	#8
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Mstr MSTR....Martz Safety Toggle Release, If you are right handed... it allows you to load a new full mag on a locked back toggle without changing your shooting hand grip had, AND release the toggle to charge the weapon and at the same time, taking it off safe?.... It works off the safety bar, and an added "S" shaped link fit / machined in the frame, connected to the hold open and basically pulls the hold open lever down, when you take it off safe... It works great!!! But, is really a can of worms to make, machine, & install? Although I know he did many when he first invented it, I don't think it was ever a profitable venture for him, or anyone... It was just something unique to JVM, and so it will probably remain so... best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

12-17-2016, 11:53 AM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I have personally known Charlie for close to twenty years~ He is a spirited gentleman and will talk to you by phone if you have questions. He recently overhauled his site adding better descriptions and picture. He will go to heaven! Eric

12-17-2016, 08:59 PM	#9
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Thanks Gt. I'd like to see a picture of how it is fitted to a luger is someone has one and would take some pictures. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-18-2016, 02:00 AM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Thanks guys. Like most patents and patent drawings- it makes my head spin. It is a cool idea, and basically very simple- when one moves the safety lever and the safety bar rises, it connects to an added lever that pulls the hold open down. Mr. Martz thought that having to pull the toggle back to release the hold open was a "defect", I'm not sure; but his MSTR would sure make it easier to close the toggle on an empty magazine when the mag is latched in place. I can see how he does it, but it would be a lot, a huge lot, of work to accomplish. The member that wanted a .45 Marz should jump on that one at CC's; they don't grow on trees and no more will be made. RIP - JVM. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-18-2016, 11:05 AM	#14
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	There was a link to a .45 Martz Luger at iCollector, I copied the pic of the toggle logo - A scriptive 'JVM' and stamped caliber, but it's not the familiar oval & stamped block lettered JVM... Maybe an early .45 conversion??? Here it is - http://www.icollector.com/John-Martz...iber_i11028533 Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...