Proof Marks On Commercial DWM

Mike K. · 03-18-2017, 12:13 PM

Greetings,

Can one of the members please identify for me these proof marks on an early DWM? One number appears to be 30 and the other just a number 3.

Thanks in advance.

DonVoigt · 03-18-2017, 01:04 PM

These have been shown and discussed before, they appear on East German , Erma reworks.
Though not certain, I believe they are workers marks for Erma in the '60s- JMHO.

Similar markings are on my Bulgarian 1908 rework that is pretty certainly Erma work from surplus Bulgarians sold in the post war period.

Mike K. · 03-18-2017, 09:44 PM

Don,

Very interesting, thanks for the response and information. Do you happen to know any of the links to those discussions?

Also, was any of the metal reworked on your example? Mine had some edges smoothed, as well as a serial number added. You can actually see some of the metal rework in the image I posted.

Thanks!

DonVoigt · 03-18-2017, 11:29 PM

Mike,
Erma repaired and re-finished the guns they did. This one had a Mauser toggle as you can see; though it now has an original Bulgarian toggle.

There was one thread not long ago, but I cannot remember if it was here or the other forum.
I think I asked the same question on mine when I first posted it, there was not much to read, and not many ideas, certainly no firm data.

maybe this time someone will see it!

spacecoast · 03-19-2017, 08:39 AM

I have pictures of several similarly-marked examples from reworked 1908 Bulgarian frames, as Don noted.

I would really like to know more about your gun - obviously not a 1908 Bulgarian from the lanyard staple. Can you post some additional pictures?

spacecoast · 03-23-2017, 02:49 PM

Interesting that Mike K. has 33 posts in 10 years on the forum, and does not follow up to a request for more info.

Mike K. · 03-23-2017, 02:53 PM

Death in the family. I will respond when I get a moment to post pictures. Perhaps next time you could just send a PM or email to follow up.
Thanks

John Sabato · 03-24-2017, 10:23 AM

Patience is a virtue. Not everybody gets the chance to check the forum everyday...

Mike, my condolences on your loss.

Mike K. · 03-27-2017, 12:07 AM

Hi John,

First, thank you for your thoughtfulness.

I have attached additional images. This is a recent shooter purchase at a gun show from a vendor who was not sure about the history. I simply believe it is a mismatch. The upper receiver was force serial numbered to the lower. Only the trigger, safety bar, safety lever, and lower receiver match in number. The take down lever and side-plate are mismatched. The toggle, toggle link, and breech-block match. The firing pin is unnumbered. And, the hold open lever is unnumbered as well. Looks like both the upper and lower frame had metal reworking. I paid commensurate to the condition, simply for a shooter. Thanks to those forum members with supportive comments and opinions.

Mike K. · 03-27-2017, 12:08 AM

3 additional images

spacecoast · 03-27-2017, 11:09 AM

Thanks for posting the pictures, and sorry about my impatience. I was hoping there was something to link this to Erma's processing of Bulgarian contract pistols, but I don't see anything. The marks on the replacement barrel do look familiar.

Lugerdoc · 03-27-2017, 11:15 AM

The circled 9 under the barrel is either a Portugese or Austrian inspector's marking, depending on which reference book you believe. TH

sheepherder · 03-27-2017, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Similar markings are on my Bulgarian 1908 rework that is pretty certainly Erma work from surplus Bulgarians sold in the post war period.

Don, this is the first frame ear I have seen pictures of that shows definitive [& rough!] surface grind marks. My own Luger ears are all lacking any tool marks, whether mill, grinder, or polish. I have to wonder what the Erma people thought needed additional grinding...Unusual to see this pattern of grind marks, it indicates some kind of horizontal grind fixture, rather than a vertical rotary grinder...

DonVoigt · 03-27-2017, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Don, this is the first frame ear I have seen pictures of that shows definitive [& rough!] surface grind marks. My own Luger ears are all lacking any tool marks, whether mill, grinder, or polish. I have to wonder what the Erma people thought needed additional grinding...Unusual to see this pattern of grind marks, it indicates some kind of horizontal grind fixture, rather than a vertical rotary grinder...

Good question, but I have no idea.
Maybe a dent that needed cleaning up?
Another one of those curious "un-knowables".

Lugerdoc · 03-28-2017, 10:49 AM

I've alway been told that the marking shown above were for testing hardness. TH

Mike K. · 03-28-2017, 09:43 PM

Thanks again for your great opinions Gents. In the end, I just think this example I own is quite simply a parts gun, great for shooting, with interesting marks on the ear and barrel.

03-18-2017, 12:13 PM	#1
Mike K. User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Proof Marks On Commercial DWM Greetings, Can one of the members please identify for me these proof marks on an early DWM? One number appears to be 30 and the other just a number 3. Thanks in advance. Attached Thumbnails

03-18-2017, 01:04 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	These have been shown and discussed before, they appear on East German , Erma reworks. Though not certain, I believe they are workers marks for Erma in the '60s- JMHO. Similar markings are on my Bulgarian 1908 rework that is pretty certainly Erma work from surplus Bulgarians sold in the post war period. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-18-2017, 11:29 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Mike, Erma repaired and re-finished the guns they did. This one had a Mauser toggle as you can see; though it now has an original Bulgarian toggle. There was one thread not long ago, but I cannot remember if it was here or the other forum. I think I asked the same question on mine when I first posted it, there was not much to read, and not many ideas, certainly no firm data. maybe this time someone will see it! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-19-2017, 08:39 AM	#5
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	I have pictures of several similarly-marked examples from reworked 1908 Bulgarian frames, as Don noted. I would really like to know more about your gun - obviously not a 1908 Bulgarian from the lanyard staple. Can you post some additional pictures? __________________ My avatars are the Bulgarian word for "Fire", as seen on my 1900, 1906 and 1908 Bulgarian Contract DWM Lugers. Looking for a DWM Commercial side plate #95

03-23-2017, 02:49 PM	#6
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	Interesting that Mike K. has 33 posts in 10 years on the forum, and does not follow up to a request for more info. __________________ My avatars are the Bulgarian word for "Fire", as seen on my 1900, 1906 and 1908 Bulgarian Contract DWM Lugers. Looking for a DWM Commercial side plate #95

03-18-2017, 09:44 PM	#3
Mike K. User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Don, Very interesting, thanks for the response and information. Do you happen to know any of the links to those discussions? Also, was any of the metal reworked on your example? Mine had some edges smoothed, as well as a serial number added. You can actually see some of the metal rework in the image I posted. Thanks!

03-23-2017, 02:53 PM	#7
Mike K. User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Death in the family. I will respond when I get a moment to post pictures. Perhaps next time you could just send a PM or email to follow up. Thanks

03-24-2017, 10:23 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Patience is a virtue. Not everybody gets the chance to check the forum everyday... Mike, my condolences on your loss. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-27-2017, 12:07 AM	#9
Mike K. User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi John, First, thank you for your thoughtfulness. I have attached additional images. This is a recent shooter purchase at a gun show from a vendor who was not sure about the history. I simply believe it is a mismatch. The upper receiver was force serial numbered to the lower. Only the trigger, safety bar, safety lever, and lower receiver match in number. The take down lever and side-plate are mismatched. The toggle, toggle link, and breech-block match. The firing pin is unnumbered. And, the hold open lever is unnumbered as well. Looks like both the upper and lower frame had metal reworking. I paid commensurate to the condition, simply for a shooter. Thanks to those forum members with supportive comments and opinions. Attached Thumbnails

03-27-2017, 12:08 AM	#10
Mike K. User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	3 additional images Attached Thumbnails

03-27-2017, 11:09 AM	#11
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	Thanks for posting the pictures, and sorry about my impatience. I was hoping there was something to link this to Erma's processing of Bulgarian contract pistols, but I don't see anything. The marks on the replacement barrel do look familiar. __________________ My avatars are the Bulgarian word for "Fire", as seen on my 1900, 1906 and 1908 Bulgarian Contract DWM Lugers. Looking for a DWM Commercial side plate #95

03-27-2017, 11:15 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The circled 9 under the barrel is either a Portugese or Austrian inspector's marking, depending on which reference book you believe. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

03-28-2017, 10:49 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I've alway been told that the marking shown above were for testing hardness. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

03-28-2017, 09:43 PM	#16
Mike K. User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks again for your great opinions Gents. In the end, I just think this example I own is quite simply a parts gun, great for shooting, with interesting marks on the ear and barrel.