147gr safe to shoot?

[Sky Zero]

My local range was selling some 9mm phoenix ammunition or something that was 147gr. Would this be safe to use? Doesn't mention anything about extra powder. I bought a box and shot it through my BYF which was giving me hold open issues. held open after every round, but im curious if I shouldn't be shooting it.

[Chickenthief]

The real problem is NATO milspec 9mm in that it is loaded for submachine guns.
There is to much omph i that and it might crack the rear of the toggle link.

In my neck of the woods the P210's used by the military had their mainspring switched for a stiffer one to cope with the hot ammo.

Checked a pdf on military cartridges and it lists the 9mm as:
Bullet = 115gr
Max. pressure = 43000psi (35000psi SAAMI)
Speed = 1263fps+-5fps 15feet from muzzle

https://www.google.dk/url?sa=t&rct=j...v4x62w&cad=rja

[mrerick]

The firing cycle of a luger is more finely balanced than more modern designs. It was, after all, one of the very first semi-auto handguns.

The hold open is normally held down by a very small spring mounted at the front of the hold open part which rests in the frame below the receiver. When the magazine empties, the loading button pushes this lever up, overcoming the spring tension.

It sounds like that spring might be broken or not effective at holding the hold open part down. Take the canon/receiver assembly off, and get a good look at the part as it rests in the milled well on top of the frame.

Does it push up without binding? When you push it down, does it push right up?

Might be some dirt down there or a damaged spring.

Marc

[DonVoigt]

Surely you mean held open after each mag was empty, if it really held open after each round, something is wrong.

147gr means nothing withour knowing the velocity! Heavy bullets are not recommended, i.e. heavier than 124gr; lead bullets can be problematic in feeding and require more cleaning, JMHO.

Pretty strange time to ask if it is ok- after firing 50 rounds!?

[Rick W.]

Sometimes a piece of masking tape can tell you relative movements on the rear of the pistol as to ammo strength or pistol weakness.

[Sky Zero]

Don, I meant after each empty magazine. I understand the 147 is the weight of the bullet, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction. 147 is heavier than 115 or 124 and thus has a harder push against the action and I just didn't know if it was safe at that weight. 50 rounds probably can't be used to measure a fix on most guns but considering mine wouldn't hold open 30% of the time or more, and this did it every time with the 147gr bullet , I'm inclined to think it's my mainsoring?

rick, I wouldn't even know how to judge what's too much and too little with that method! it's a great idea though

Mrrerick, the only odd thing I notice is that the hold open sits high with an empty magazine in it. the well is clean. I have a these open about it on another thread. is the hold open spring something that can be replaced or does the whole numbered part habe to be changed out?

chickentheif, thanks! so basically about NATO rounds and anything heavier than 124gr?

[Rick W.]

James,

The masking tape routine is something that was talked about on this forum years ago. Tis not a new idea, really do not remember who suggested such specifically here, but I borrow the idea from time to time on my pistols.

On the rear of the Luger pistol, the rear toggle section that houses the integral rear sight, rotates upward during the firing cycle. If you pull the toggle to the rear manually, you will see at the rear toggle/frame interface, probably two marks made into said frame just above the landyard ring from the over rotation of the rear toggle section. Kinda like a tuffy beaver took a bite out of the frame in some light.

The recoil spring is supposed to retard the action of the toggle to the rear. The frame is kinda a last resort in my opinion. The condition of the recoil spring, and the fitment of the toggle train to the receiver retards the rearward movement. There are other parameters of cause of movement to the toggle as well. A simple concept for longevity of said parts is to use ammo that allows just a touch(if that) onto the frame from the two protrusions from the rear toggle section. Kinda a balancing act of a type.

You see Lugers all the time with heavy duty indentations on their rear frame above the landyard loop. This is usually due to hot loads of whatever source or a weak recoil spring. Choosing ots ammo or reloading can tune the firing cycle to reduce the bite into the frame. Ever feel an auto pistol that bites into your hand? That is metal on metal abrupt stop of the slide onto the rear buttress. I have one receiver that I bought when I was much younger, was purchased cracked, I believe from such events.

Anyone can overload the Luger with hot loads, not much problem to do such, one sees it all the time. Yeah, it will work pretty good, but the stress on the pistol will eventually cause failures of parts somewhere. I do not believe a hot load is necessary for a 100 year old pistol; but just my own opinion.

Not very scientific or anything, but has some practicality to it, the tape marker observation. If the tape is smeared off the frame, one would tend to think the toggle is moving too fast and way too far back, overriding the natural designed-in forces of the mechanism. My shooting Lugers will just mark the tape with my reloads. I have not bought factory 9mm ammo for many years, but just my choice, I can control things to my liking with my handloads. If I mess up, no body to blame but the guy behind the riggin.

If you do a search, I am sure you will find the tape method explained in more detail than this little note. Really not a bad indicator of system parameters, and not too expensive either. Mileage with the tape marker routine will vary of course with the user.

I have no idea if your 147gr purchased load is safe or not. I feel that the 147 is a bit heavy for the Luger but solely an opinion from a casual reserver. Most folks here like the 115gr Winchester white box stuff, just from observing the threads over the years.

Rick W.

[DonVoigt]

It is the "energy" not the weight- weight x velocity squared = energy; so the velocity has much more effect than the weight!

The hold open should be high with an empty mag, the mag button pushes it up to engage the toggle.

What it sounds like is you have a good mainspring and was shooting "weak" ammo, if it did not lock open. With the 147gr you have more energy to compress the spring fully, and it locks open.

You can't decide if the main spring is too strong without more info.
If the hold open does engage with the empty mag, and then release when you remove it, there is likely nothing wrong with the hold open.

You may also be limp wristing the pistol, which will cause the same failure to lock open some times and not others. Try a "stiff arm" stance and pay attention to it.

[Chickenthief]

The momentum of a 124gr bullet going 1100fps (Georges original load) equals a 147gr bullet going 930fps'ish.

If you want to feed it a steady diet of heavy fast bullets a stiffer mainspring is a must but in reality it was never designed for heavy metal. If you want a crap shooter that will take any beating the go Glock.
A fine antique needs a little fiess/delicatesse so spend the extra dollar or two and feed it the right ammo and enjoy ;-)

[Sky Zero]

Rick, some excellent information! I think I will have to try that Nd see what happens with it

Don, I don't disagree. The hold open catches on an empty magazine without firing it but has issues with Winchester 115g, and pretty much anything that wasn't that 147 stuff and it's confusing me. I could be limp wristing it, however I have no issues with my 1918 using the same stance. is there any way yo tell how hot a specific load is?

chicken, the only reason I ask is because the 147 was the only thing not giving my byf a hold open issue, including WWB, but I also dont want to damage it :/

[DonVoigt]

How many different magazines have you tried?
Sometimes the mag spring gets a little weak and doesn't snap the hold open up as quick as a stronger spring; could be an issue.

Try some 124gr S&B or just 115 gr in a European brand and see what happens.

[Sky Zero]

Don,

I have used 4 different mags: 2 new mecgars, 1 fxo, one dwm military. All give me the same issue. I think I will try some 124. I haven't tried that one yet. Think it could be the mainspring?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Sky Zero

Don,

I have used 4 different mags: 2 new mecgars, 1 fxo, one dwm military. All give me the same issue. I think I will try some 124. I haven't tried that one yet. Think it could be the mainspring?

Could be a little too strong; or not enough lubrication; or limp wristing; or a worn notch on the breech block; or a worn hold open.

[Sky Zero]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Could be a little too strong; or not enough lubrication; or limp wristing; or a worn notch on the breech block; or a worn hold open.

Haha...well, at least we are narrowing it down!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Sky Zero

Haha...well, at least we are narrowing it down!

Yes,
it seems to have something to do with the hold open feature.

[noylj]

>147gr means nothing withour knowing the velocity
No, pressure. Velocity is NOT pressure, unless you KNOW the exact burn specifications of the powder.
If recoil seems harsher, that could have an effect on the tiny spring.
For me, it would be simple: if the gun functions perfectly with 115-125gn bullets, and is acting up ONLY with these 147gn bullets, I would go back to 115-125gn bullets.
I have never fired a factory round through any of my three P-08s, so have no idea how factory functions, but the loads I work up for my P-08s function my other 9x19s just fine.
The 9x19 problem I "like" is when the empty case and the next round both eject out of the gun—but I haven't seen this with my P-08s.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by noylj

>147gr means nothing withour knowing the velocity
No, pressure. Velocity is NOT pressure, unless you KNOW the exact burn specifications of the powder.
If recoil seems harsher, that could have an effect on the tiny spring.
For me, it would be simple: if the gun functions perfectly with 115-125gn bullets, and is acting up ONLY with these 147gn bullets, I would go back to 115-125gn bullets.
I have never fired a factory round through any of my three P-08s, so have no idea how factory functions, but the loads I work up for my P-08s function my other 9x19s just fine.
The 9x19 problem I "like" is when the empty case and the next round both eject out of the gun—but I haven't seen this with my P-08s.

NO ONE mentioned anything about Pressure!

What , you think we are idiots - telling us that "velocity is not pressure".

Did you even read the original and the rest of the posts?
His pistol functions "fine" with the 147gr bullets, but not the "115".

I won't even pretend to understand this statement:
"The 9x19 problem I "like" is when the empty case and the next round both eject out of the gun—but I haven't seen this with my P-08s."

[Sky Zero]

Noy, I do appreciate the response but I'm going to have to side with Don here haha.

Don, what I definitely confirmed is that the issue stems with the lower half of the Mauser. I swapped it out with my dwm and using WWB and it functions just fine. The top half of the 1918 dwm did not function well with the byf lower. You saw the pictures over on my other thread in the repair section, and someone said the BYF hold open sits rather high with an empty magazine? I just don't know why the 147gr seems to work fine but not the 115 wwb that everyone else uses. So frustrated!

[noylj]

We are taking sides now? Us vs them? Really?

>My local range was selling some 9mm phoenix ammunition or something that was 147gr. Would this be safe to use? Doesn't mention anything about extra powder. I bought a box and shot it through my BYF which was giving me hold open issues. held open after every round, but im curious if I shouldn't be shooting it.

I read this to mean that the 115 gn had been OK, but was giving the OP "hold open issues" at the end of each magazine (i.e., the toggle was NOT locking at the end of the shot string, probably because the 115gn load may be marginally weak), and the 147gn ammo was locking the toggle back after every shot (i.e., "held open after every round") instead of at the end of the magazine, which might imply too much force the jiggled the hold open spring to hold open early.

Next, velocity is not pressure. Sorry, but I can't look at the velocity I get from a load using Bullseye and, just from that velocity, compare to the pressure from a round using Blue Dot. Velocity is not pressure, as it also includes burn rate and probably several other factors. You can't fire a factory 115gn load and get 1109fps with Win 115gn FMJ-RN or 1030fps with WWB or 1118fps with Hornady 115gn HP-XTP and decide that ANY 115gn load that produces that velocity is safe or is producing the same pressure, as powder has an effect. Now, again, that may not have been what you wrote, but that is the way I read it and I don't think I wrote anything that you can disagree about other than it doesn't pertain to what you meant.

So I made my statements.

I love being personally attacked for simply reading what was written and maybe misinterpreting it.
Next, the problem I described that 'I "liked",' I described it as (1) only happened with 9x19 guns and (2) it looks rather odd seeing a case and a round suddenly being ejected together out of the gun. Sorry if you don't "like" my mentioning something that I found it interesting that is sort of an aside, but it is a 9x19 problem i have run into.
Finally, I admitted that I know NOTHING about any factory ammo, as I don't shoot it.
So, Sky Zero and Don: What SIDE are you taking that disagrees with anything I wrote? The most you can accuse me of is being confused by the original post and not correctly addressing the Sky's issue, and that is usually not grounds for a personal attack.
PS: I have tried to proof-read this again, but my computer keeps changing Sky to Shy.

[DonVoigt]

Noylj,
Sorry you are unhappy, but YOU started the attack with your first and irrevelant statement after quoting me and saying: "No, pressure. Velocity is NOT pressure, unless you KNOW the exact burn specifications of the powder."

Just what is this if not an "attack"? And totally off the wall as no one mentioned pressure in any of the discussion. We understand that "velocity is not pressure", but what has this to do with the issue of the hold open.

It is the "energy" transferred to the recoil mechanism that causes the luger to operate, i.e.- weight of the projectile times the velocity squared. So a discourse on "pressure" is not revelant to the problem of the OP.

As to your last post, I simply do not understand how you "like" a weapon that is malfunctioning- but maybe I still don't understand it- an empty and a round ejecting at the same time?

Post what you want, but for such a strange and unrelated issue , would it not be best to start a new thread and discuss that problem- as it has nothing to do with the hold open issue- does it?

I assure you my response was not a "personal" attack, but comments on a response that did nothing to advance the solution of the problem; we can chalk it up to the fact that you misunderstood the original post and got thrown off the track by "safe"- as has a hand loader might- you equated this with chamber pressure.

And yes, lots of times we "take sides" here- that is why it is called a discussion forum.