P04 help please:

[9x19]

Hi Guys,

This is my first post on this forum and I am hoping that you can help me out. I am just finishing off an Inventor 3D assembly of a Luger P04.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find any dimensioned drawings of the adjustable sight on the rear toggle. I also need details of the 150mm barrel front sight, I believe this to be higher than the standard 100mm P08 barrel?

Additionally, what would put the icing on the cake for me would be a genuine Sr. No (or series to choose from) and dimensioned details of the parts of the service issue wooden stock.

If anyone can help me out, or point me in the direction of a web link, that would be very much appreciated.

Regards & best wishes,

Dave

Attached is a very quick render using Inventor. Normally I would create a photo realistic one using Keyshot. I will do that when the model is complete.

[9x19]

This is the kind of imagery I am looking to produce:

[DonVoigt]

Welcome Dave,
nice work.
If you put your location in your profile, you might be able to link up with a member who has a navy for you to measure.

[9x19]

Thank you for your welcome Don, it is much appreciated.

As you suggest, I have now included my location in my profile, it is West Yorkshire, UK.

With the situation regarding firearms in the UK I think it unlikely that anyone will approach me with an offer to measure a P04, but a nice thought nevertheless.

Prior to the ban on most handguns in the UK I held a firearms certificate for 25 years and owned and shot many pistols and rifles (Colt 1911 MkIV Series 70, Smith & Wesson 629 .44Mag, S&W Model 14 Target Master .38Spcl, S&W 9mm Mini-Gun, Colt Python .357Mag, just to name a few). Unfortunately a Luger was not one of them. The nearest I got to one was once being offered a C96 Mauser "Red 9" to shoot - that is probably going to be next on my list of guns to model.

Now the only time I get to shoot is when I visit my eldest son in Tampa Florida. You are so lucky to have a constitution, and the 2nd Amendment in the U.S.

Sorry, I am starting to waffle now, so I will go, but before I do, may I ask if you know of a source of high quality blueprints for WWII era guns. I don't mind paying a reasonable amount for them, but they must be legible.

Regards,

Dave

Regards,

Dave

[Lugerdoc]

Dave in UK, The original Navy 6" barrels had a higher front sight base, so that a standard PO8 front sight blade could be used with the ajustable 2 position navy rear sight. if you are near Kent in the UK, you might check with CMR (Charles Roscoe) to see if he currently has any Navy lugers in stock that you could take some measurements in his store. TH

[lugerholsterrepair]

Dave, Welcome to the Forum..Out of curiosity..what is the purpose of these?

What kind of dimensions ..? Photo's as well ? Measuring a Navy rear sight could get extensive with serrations and numbers and all the rest.

I have 3 original Imperial Navy serial numbered stocks.

[John Sabato]

I have the complete set of 1913 P.08 Luger fully dimensioned blueprints available for download. The only parts that differ from the standard P.08 and the Navy Luger are the barrel, and the rear link with integral adjustable sight. Unfortunately, I have not been able to acquire the blueprints for those parts... and I have been looking for years...(make that decades)...

Regardless, the blueprints I have will help you to make sure everything else in your rendered model is accurate in size, including bevel edges, and radius...

I spent a couple of hundred hours of my spare time cleaning those scans to make them very readable...You can PM me for ordering instructions if you want them. The cost is $25.00 USD...

[9x19]

Hi Guys,

Firstly I will answer Jerry's question - I am the managing director of my own mechanical design company here in the UK and whilst I am "officially" retired I like to keep my hand in modelling things that are of particular interest to me, in this case the P08/P04. Every firearm that I have modelled has been a challenge in it's own right, so it keeps my interest piqued.

Another model I am just completing is a fully automatic AR15.

If I can't find workable drawings then I sometimes have to use model parts that have been created by others and available on-line.

Inevitably though these are not good enough, or have errors, that I have to correct and build into "working" 3D assemblies. By that I mean that they would function exactly as originally designed if they were manufactured. There is no "fudging" in my models. Near enough is not good enough. It has to be exact.

John S, I am not surprised that it took you so long to tidy up those blueprints. My P08/P04 is created from the original Mauser factory drawings and apart from the changes I want to make to create a P04 should be spot on. There are no interferences in the assembly and everything should "move" and "operate" as intended.

Thank you for offering me your blueprints, but I don't really need them except for the items mentioned in my original post.

If I cannot find this information then I will change the 150mm barrel for a 100mm version that I have already created, and call the model complete.

Jerry Burney - to model the parts I would need the factory drawings with legible dimensions. I have studied several videos of how the sight operates so assembling the parts would not be a issue.

Regards all,

Dave





"

[lugerholsterrepair]

Dave, Interesting..Firstly I will answer Jerry's question - I am the managing director of my own mechanical design company here in the UK and whilst I am "officially" retired I like to keep my hand in modelling things that are of particular interest to me. But this only begs the question..what do you DO with these models? Sell them? Use them for screen savers? Publish them on yue tube? Desk drawer them when finished? Other than your interest piqued is there any other use?

to model the parts I would need the factory drawings with legible dimensions.I am not aware of any that exist for the Imperial Navy rear sight? OR the Navy stock. There might be though..Just I ain't ever seen em.

[9x19]

Hi Jerry,

No, I have never considered selling my models or using them as screen savers.

My company web site does feature a few in the "Serious designs just for fun" section of the gallery (www.mdltd.org) and one of these, the Bentley BR2 WWI rotary engine appeared in Dr. Tom Dine's (of the Bentley Foundation) book "W O Bentley Rotary Aero Engines" on P.19. I was happy and flattered to supply that FOC as the author personally signed a copy of his book for me.

An awful lot of my work is covered by NDA's and so I struggle to find models to illustrate some of my skills, hence this section of my web site.

From my POV as I did not create the designs of some of these models I am reluctant to take any credit, but I do enjoy recreating them in a computer environment - sort of virtual machining of the parts (if you understand what I mean). If I create a design that has been requested by a customer then that is an entirely different story - I charge for my time in that case.

Given the necessary workshop equipment I have the skills to reproduce most of these designs myself, but I am happy to do so virtually.

If any reader has experience of solid modelling then they will know immediately why I have been in love with it for 36+ years. It is not something that is easily explained to someone that has not used it. It's an itch I have to scratch!


Regards all,

Dave

[9x19]

Hi Cirelaw,

I am not certain why two versions of the front sight are shown on Pg.2 of the blueprints. That caused me some confusion. "kleinst" translates as "midget" or "sub-miniature" and the other sight is obviously the "normal" one fitted to most lugers.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the reason for the mini version?

Regards,

Dave

[cirelaw]

Dave, I mearly found this site and posted it! Someone should have your answer~ Awesome!! Eric

[m1903a3]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

I have the complete set of 1913 P.08 Luger fully dimensioned blueprints available for download. The only parts that differ from the standard P.08 and the Navy Luger are the barrel, and the rear link with integral adjustable sight. Unfortunately, I have not been able to acquire the blueprints for those parts... and I have been looking for years...(make that decades)...

Regardless, the blueprints I have will help you to make sure everything else in your rendered model is accurate in size, including bevel edges, and radius...

I spent a couple of hundred hours of my spare time cleaning those scans to make them very readable...You can PM me for ordering instructions if you want them. The cost is $25.00 USD...

They would only apply to the 1916/1917 Navy P.04s - and don't forget the toggle pin flange is bigger on a late P/04

Setting aside the original 1904 version, I think most Navy collectors would consider the 1906 Navies to be the "typical" P.04. But they are much different from a P.08. The frames are different, the receiver is longer, they have a grip safety, etc. etc.

[9x19]

Apologies for my tardy reply to your comments gentlemen. A holiday and return to find my internet was down due to a line fault for several days caused the delay.

I thank you for your comments and insight. As it was proving impossible to find the details I required for the P04 I have changed the barrel back to the standard 4" version and am now just completing all of the stampings for it to be a model of a known de-activated 1942 "byf" Luger P08.

Once these details are completed the model will be taken into Keyshot for photo realistic imaging.

For my next project I am torn between a PPSH Russian sub-machine gun or a P38. Once again finding the drawings will be the issue. The M4 AR15 I was also working on is nearly complete, but I recently had to completely re-model the downloaded version of the upper receiver as it was very poorly modelled.

I will make an effort in the near future to come back to this very post and let you see some images of both of the finished and rendered models.

Meanwhile if anybody knows of a full set of legible drawings for either a P38 or a PPSH please let me know. The ones of the P38 illustrated on the web sites in some of your posts above are unfortunately not clear enough. If they improve when they paid for and downloaded please let me know.

Regards & best wishes to you all.

Dave

[mrerick]

Dave, do you know if these models could be imported to Blender?

I would be interested in playing with a cutaway version of the gun, like the model you showed above of the M1911a1...

[Sergio Natali]

Dave

I only wanted to congratulate on your efforts to create such an interesting model of a Luger P04 Naval.

Cheers

[9x19]

Hi Guys,

The 1911 model was very much based on my experiences of owning a Colt Mk IV Series 70 and what I would have liked as my ideal gun - a Colt Combat Commander with a compensator to bring the barrel length up to the full 5" standard length was my idea.

My own gun (the real one) was heavily customised: satin chrome (frame) and liquid ink blue slide. The sight rail was bead blasted before bluing and it was fitted with BoMar BMCS adjustable combat sites. The feed ramp was smoothed and polished and the ejection port lowered. The trigger was an adjustable target version with the release pressure set at 3.5lbs. It had a ring hammer and beaver tail grip with a flat mainspring housing. The magazine well was also funnelled and each mag fitted with protective bumpers.

Most of these features were incorporated into the model, but I did opt for non-adjustable sights and gas porting of the barrel and slide. That would mean the recoil spring could be lightened a bit whilst making the lock time slightly faster. If I was in the States, and not in the UK, I might have had both versions made.

I use Autodesk's Inventor Pro for all my modelling and the files that are outputted to the internet are usually IGS, STP or Parasolid. None of these formats contain a history tree and therefore modification can be difficult (if not impossible without re-creation), especially when it comes to some parts that have coincident fillets.

Without a history tree you cannot see how the model was constructed, in what order, and you cannot move backwards and forwards within it to modify the parts. All modifications have to be additional of subtractive.

One other things about this model is that the chequering on the grips and frame will not appear in an outputted model as these were solely applied within the "Keyshot" photo realistic rendered that I use.

I have no experience with "Blender" so I am afraid you will have to check what file formats you can accept.

Sergio, thanks for your interest, it is unfortunate that my efforts came to nought. If the information ever becomes available I WILL create a P04. For the moment I am moving onto pastures new.

Finally, I have included one more image of the 1911 that is easier to see the finished article without the see through look.

Regards all,

Dave

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by 9x19

Hi Cirelaw,

I am not certain why two versions of the front sight are shown on Pg.2 of the blueprints. That caused me some confusion. "kleinst" translates as "midget" or "sub-miniature" and the other sight is obviously the "normal" one fitted to most lugers.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the reason for the mini version?

Regards,

Dave

Perhaps it just means "shorter" in this instance; there were multiple height front sights for targeting the luger.

On my drawings(may be different from above" the "normal" sight is 7mm, the Kleinstmass sight is 6.7mm, and the "grossmass" sight is 7.3mm Tall.

[Angus Magnus]

Maybe you can check with Othais at C&Rsenal, of Youtube fame.
He and his team make animations of all the firearms they review and could be an excellent source for you.

He is active and approachable on social media, like reddit. Perhaps you could email him and get all the measurements you need?

http://candrsenal.com/

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by 9x19

Hi Guys,

This is my first post on this forum and I am hoping that you can help me out. I am just finishing off an Inventor 3D assembly of a Luger P04.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find any dimensioned drawings of the adjustable sight on the rear toggle. I also need details of the 150mm barrel front sight, I believe this to be higher than the standard 100mm P08 barrel?

Additionally, what would put the icing on the cake for me would be a genuine Sr. No (or series to choose from) and dimensioned details of the parts of the service issue wooden stock.

If anyone can help me out, or point me in the direction of a web link, that would be very much appreciated.

Regards & best wishes,

Dave

Attached is a very quick render using Inventor. Normally I would create a photo realistic one using Keyshot. I will do that when the model is complete.

Hi,

The "square" grips look a little odd.

Sieger