Opportunity?

unitedcs · 09-04-2017, 08:10 AM

Hello all,

Over the years of collecting I've many times run into a trade situation with another individual who is unknown to me and even though I'd of loved to complete the trade (gun for gun) there was just too many doubts of completing the swap successfully. There are such brokers available on line but then again, stuck in somewhat of the same dilemma in their use.

I don't know if any of the long time reputable members would be interested in offering such a service for members of this board. It might be a nice source of revenue and I for one would feel confident in using such a transfer service. This would insure confidence that both pieces did indeed match the traders claims/description with a professional eye and would alleviate any doubts about either party completing the transaction.

There may be a member of the board already offering such a service that I'm unaware of.

Just a thought.

Vlim · 09-04-2017, 08:16 AM

A good idea, but I'm afraid that whenever any amount of money is involved, confidence, reliability, good behavior and trustworthiness are the first principles that get thrown overboard.

That being said, there are a number of people on this forum who are very trustworthy and wouldn't even think of pulling one on you. One of the reasons I like this little community.

And as we say over here: It takes years to build up a reputation and just minutes to destroy it

alvin · 09-04-2017, 08:34 AM

Trading is not easy. As we can see, C&R is like a house, each sample is different, even for same type same subvariation. Say, you have a domain, you're looking for a specific variation, and you see one on market, does not mean it's definitely attractive to you? Not necessarily. Frequently, it might not match your condition requirement, it might miss key accessory, etc. That's still assume you're in domain for long time, have viewed thousands of samples of that type of gun in hand, and know the thing reasonably well, not depends on what seller tells you... even in this case, the condition might not match your requirement.

Assume the condition matches your requirement. Is the price acceptable? That's another big question mark. It takes years to figure out what's available at what rate.. "things like this appear every month? every quarter? every year? every 5 years? 10 years?" Rarity based on condition, and associated cost, is an important consideration.

Assume the price is also right. Then, there is yet another factor -- your item for trading. What's the other party's assessment on your item? Does it match his/her need? Priced right? He/she knows the value of it? etc, etc.

So, trading usually does NOT work for higher end guns. Usually, only works for low end items. Trade CAI MN 1895 revolver with Yugoslavian Tokarev, that works well.

Bill_in_VA · 09-04-2017, 08:36 AM

Wait - I'm confused.... It sounds like you're saying you're uncomfortable executing a trade with a fellow forum member because you don't know them and thus don't/can't trust them, but at the same time you'd be willing to execute the same trade by way a third party whom you don't know/trust???
That being said, since it's often difficult finding someone who wants exactly what you have while also having exactly what you want, it might be best all the way around for you to simply buy and sel: sell your item, then use cash to buy the item you desire.

(On the other hand, Idon't see too much difference between trading $2000 for a Luger versus trading a $2000 item for a Luger.)

unitedcs · 09-04-2017, 09:15 AM

Not what I'm suggesting Bill. I would have no reservations trading with most members here but suppose a relatively new member posts a wtt P08 described as all matching and accepts your trade offer. Both arrive and upon inspection you discover the hold open or grips don't match or worse yet the P08 never arrives. What recorse would you have as you've just sent out your prestine K98 or whatever to this individual. Not much you could do. But if both parties agreed to pay a small fee to a third party that would verify all is as described, no worries

alvin · 09-04-2017, 09:32 AM

Usually, for trading, there is a driver party, and a rider party. Driver is the person who sees an item, and have interest in it, so he wants to contact the seller for trading. Since he wants to start this, he needs to send his trade-in item to the other party first (without payment) after settling down the detail such as 1:1, or some cash involved? etc. The rider party receives the item, inspects it, and decides trading or not. If not, return the item back to driver.

Basic trust, of course, is needed.

One way to tell a seller being fake or not is easy (fake seller defined as seller listing things not belong to him) -- Ask the seller to provide additional pictures of the item on specific areas. I have never met a fake seller who could provide pictures as requested, what they have are just those pictures copied from auction house catalog. Usually, if the person is the owner of an item, he won't cheat you by taking your trade-in item away -- genuine seller's purpose is selling his item, not cheating in a gun. That's the usual case. Even for fake sellers, their purpose is cheating in cash, not cheating in a gun.

DavidJayUden · 09-04-2017, 09:49 AM

Although not fool-proof, the E-bay and GB.com feedback systems helps in the trustworthiness category. As a chronic E-bay seller, I do keep an eye on this score, although I do draw a line in the sand as to how far I will go to please a customer.
dju

alvin · 09-04-2017, 09:56 AM

Once (only once) I traded a gun with a seller on gunsinternational.com. The guy listed three C96s, a conehammer, a Large Ring, and a Shansei, price was high. The conehammer sold quickly, but that Large Ring stayed there. The guy could not sell it, so he said that he would accept trading.

I contact him, asking "how about a Simson Luger with matching magazine".. He replied that's interesting, asked me to send him pictures. So, I sent him a bunch of pictures. He replied "I am not a Luger collector, I don't know the value of your item. I don't have interest in it except reselling" etc. But finally, we settled down on trading. I sent item to him, he checked it, and sent his stuff to me. I did not even know the guy, but that does not matter that much, I am for his gun, and that gun was indeed his gun, that's easily verified.

unitedcs · 09-04-2017, 09:57 AM

All this I know. But nice to remove any doubt in such transactions

alvin · 09-04-2017, 10:12 AM

Believe or not, gun transactions involve risks. No matter who the seller is. Even reputable dealers have mis-described items. But I got your point -- better control that risk. That's a big topic.

Another hint is what this guy usually trades and sells... if a store usually sells Timex, and one day, they throw out a Rolex, no matter it's genuine or not, at least... isn't it suspicious... not saying it's definitely a troublesome item, but it's not an item they handle in daily basis... they probably don't know it at all.

But gun transaction is usually not that bad. Most guns good on pictures are also good in hand. Some are not, but those are not common cases.

DonVoigt · 09-04-2017, 10:55 AM

Just observations:
-Trading is tough- even in person- kind of like "mating elephants"
-unwinding a trade is even tougher when one party finds something not to their satisfaction
-A third party would only make the transaction take longer or kill it all together
-Better to sell you item yourself and use cash to buy

JMHO

The real and hidden moral to the trading story, is "have ready cash".

again JMHO.

Please don't say "not everyone is rich", buying another collectible is discretionary for the buyer or trader; one should never spend the rent, car payment, or lunch money on a new collectible.
Also JMHO.

It is true that sometimes or rarely a guy only wants to trade- why I'm not sure- but it happens.
Then you just dive into the "can of worms".

mrerick · 09-04-2017, 11:37 AM

I think it would also be difficult to act as a proxy for another collector. Even two experienced collectors have different levels of opinion and understanding.

It would be possible to be a purely financial broker. Accepting both party's asset (money, gun, etc) and then ensuring delivery of the acquired item to the buyer. This involves only taking responsibility for the physical shipment, tracking and delivery of the asset.

If you really want professional analysis of the item, we already have that in the high quality retail sales taking place from trusted business FFLs that focus on C&R firearms. It is entirely appropriate that these professionals be compensated for their knowledge.

The forum also has the secondary function of helping buyers understand which C&R dealers are honest and professional, and which ones are manipulators and fakers. Because of liable laws you often cannot name the individual dealers associated with dishonest practices, but a little study helps anyone getting into things know how satisfied members have been dealing with them, and finding a record of the past of (particularly high value) firearms.

Several years ago, I though of creating a true online database of C&R firearms which would voluntarily track their history as collectibles. This would allow online inquiry, but maintain the privacy of owners and those examining the firearms. Things like photos, descriptions, characteristics, last sale dates and (privately) ownership could be helpful. The problem is, of course, that this ends up being something of a gun registery which could be seized or stolen and misused.

Edward Tinker · 09-04-2017, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unitedcs

All this I know. But nice to remove any doubt in such transactions

you'd expect that the 3rd party would know lots of different weapons - which two people trading are much more likely to know.

Personally, I think thats not very good trading. I have made numerous deals with folks and never felt I was being ripped off.
Your example was the hold open was wrong - you expect the 3rd party to know the difference? too many types of guns or items being traded...

And it would have to be a dealer, since they would have to log in and log out each as a transaction. No, I think way to expensive, because I wouldn't do it for less than a $100 a gun, plus them paying shipping fees, both ways - another $100+

Sergio Natali · 09-04-2017, 12:48 PM

Trading is always a bit tricky.
I mean it's almost impossible that somebody owns exactly what you're looking for and at the same time is looking for what you're trying to sell.
In the past I traded some guns but I never really stroke a bargain, so the bottom line is stay away from any sort of trade.

09-04-2017, 08:10 AM	#1
unitedcs User Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Land O Lakes, Florida Posts: 90 Thanks: 8 Thanked 30 Times in 15 Posts	Opportunity? Hello all, Over the years of collecting I've many times run into a trade situation with another individual who is unknown to me and even though I'd of loved to complete the trade (gun for gun) there was just too many doubts of completing the swap successfully. There are such brokers available on line but then again, stuck in somewhat of the same dilemma in their use. I don't know if any of the long time reputable members would be interested in offering such a service for members of this board. It might be a nice source of revenue and I for one would feel confident in using such a transfer service. This would insure confidence that both pieces did indeed match the traders claims/description with a professional eye and would alleviate any doubts about either party completing the transaction. There may be a member of the board already offering such a service that I'm unaware of. Just a thought.

09-04-2017, 08:36 AM	#4
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 373 Thanks: 772 Thanked 554 Times in 198 Posts	Wait - I'm confused.... It sounds like you're saying you're uncomfortable executing a trade with a fellow forum member because you don't know them and thus don't/can't trust them, but at the same time you'd be willing to execute the same trade by way a third party whom you don't know/trust??? That being said, since it's often difficult finding someone who wants exactly what you have while also having exactly what you want, it might be best all the way around for you to simply buy and sel: sell your item, then use cash to buy the item you desire. (On the other hand, Idon't see too much difference between trading $2000 for a Luger versus trading a $2000 item for a Luger.) __________________ John 8:32 reive (riːv) vb (Military) (intr) dialect Scot and Northern English to go on a plundering raid [variant of reave] ˈreiver n e.g., " Some view the Border Reivers as loveable rogues."

09-04-2017, 09:15 AM	#5
unitedcs User Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Land O Lakes, Florida Posts: 90 Thanks: 8 Thanked 30 Times in 15 Posts	Not what I'm suggesting Bill. I would have no reservations trading with most members here but suppose a relatively new member posts a wtt P08 described as all matching and accepts your trade offer. Both arrive and upon inspection you discover the hold open or grips don't match or worse yet the P08 never arrives. What recorse would you have as you've just sent out your prestine K98 or whatever to this individual. Not much you could do. But if both parties agreed to pay a small fee to a third party that would verify all is as described, no worries Last edited by unitedcs; 09-04-2017 at 09:16 AM. Reason: Grammer

09-04-2017, 10:55 AM	#11
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Just observations: -Trading is tough- even in person- kind of like "mating elephants" -unwinding a trade is even tougher when one party finds something not to their satisfaction -A third party would only make the transaction take longer or kill it all together -Better to sell you item yourself and use cash to buy JMHO The real and hidden moral to the trading story, is "have ready cash". again JMHO. Please don't say "not everyone is rich", buying another collectible is discretionary for the buyer or trader; one should never spend the rent, car payment, or lunch money on a new collectible. Also JMHO. It is true that sometimes or rarely a guy only wants to trade- why I'm not sure- but it happens. Then you just dive into the "can of worms". __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

09-04-2017, 11:37 AM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	I think it would also be difficult to act as a proxy for another collector. Even two experienced collectors have different levels of opinion and understanding. It would be possible to be a purely financial broker. Accepting both party's asset (money, gun, etc) and then ensuring delivery of the acquired item to the buyer. This involves only taking responsibility for the physical shipment, tracking and delivery of the asset. If you really want professional analysis of the item, we already have that in the high quality retail sales taking place from trusted business FFLs that focus on C&R firearms. It is entirely appropriate that these professionals be compensated for their knowledge. The forum also has the secondary function of helping buyers understand which C&R dealers are honest and professional, and which ones are manipulators and fakers. Because of liable laws you often cannot name the individual dealers associated with dishonest practices, but a little study helps anyone getting into things know how satisfied members have been dealing with them, and finding a record of the past of (particularly high value) firearms. Several years ago, I though of creating a true online database of C&R firearms which would voluntarily track their history as collectibles. This would allow online inquiry, but maintain the privacy of owners and those examining the firearms. Things like photos, descriptions, characteristics, last sale dates and (privately) ownership could be helpful. The problem is, of course, that this ends up being something of a gun registery which could be seized or stolen and misused. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-04-2017, 08:16 AM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	A good idea, but I'm afraid that whenever any amount of money is involved, confidence, reliability, good behavior and trustworthiness are the first principles that get thrown overboard. That being said, there are a number of people on this forum who are very trustworthy and wouldn't even think of pulling one on you. One of the reasons I like this little community. And as we say over here: It takes years to build up a reputation and just minutes to destroy it

09-04-2017, 08:34 AM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Trading is not easy. As we can see, C&R is like a house, each sample is different, even for same type same subvariation. Say, you have a domain, you're looking for a specific variation, and you see one on market, does not mean it's definitely attractive to you? Not necessarily. Frequently, it might not match your condition requirement, it might miss key accessory, etc. That's still assume you're in domain for long time, have viewed thousands of samples of that type of gun in hand, and know the thing reasonably well, not depends on what seller tells you... even in this case, the condition might not match your requirement. Assume the condition matches your requirement. Is the price acceptable? That's another big question mark. It takes years to figure out what's available at what rate.. "things like this appear every month? every quarter? every year? every 5 years? 10 years?" Rarity based on condition, and associated cost, is an important consideration. Assume the price is also right. Then, there is yet another factor -- your item for trading. What's the other party's assessment on your item? Does it match his/her need? Priced right? He/she knows the value of it? etc, etc. So, trading usually does NOT work for higher end guns. Usually, only works for low end items. Trade CAI MN 1895 revolver with Yugoslavian Tokarev, that works well.

09-04-2017, 09:32 AM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Usually, for trading, there is a driver party, and a rider party. Driver is the person who sees an item, and have interest in it, so he wants to contact the seller for trading. Since he wants to start this, he needs to send his trade-in item to the other party first (without payment) after settling down the detail such as 1:1, or some cash involved? etc. The rider party receives the item, inspects it, and decides trading or not. If not, return the item back to driver. Basic trust, of course, is needed. One way to tell a seller being fake or not is easy (fake seller defined as seller listing things not belong to him) -- Ask the seller to provide additional pictures of the item on specific areas. I have never met a fake seller who could provide pictures as requested, what they have are just those pictures copied from auction house catalog. Usually, if the person is the owner of an item, he won't cheat you by taking your trade-in item away -- genuine seller's purpose is selling his item, not cheating in a gun. That's the usual case. Even for fake sellers, their purpose is cheating in cash, not cheating in a gun.

09-04-2017, 09:49 AM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Although not fool-proof, the E-bay and GB.com feedback systems helps in the trustworthiness category. As a chronic E-bay seller, I do keep an eye on this score, although I do draw a line in the sand as to how far I will go to please a customer. dju

09-04-2017, 09:56 AM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Once (only once) I traded a gun with a seller on gunsinternational.com. The guy listed three C96s, a conehammer, a Large Ring, and a Shansei, price was high. The conehammer sold quickly, but that Large Ring stayed there. The guy could not sell it, so he said that he would accept trading. I contact him, asking "how about a Simson Luger with matching magazine".. He replied that's interesting, asked me to send him pictures. So, I sent him a bunch of pictures. He replied "I am not a Luger collector, I don't know the value of your item. I don't have interest in it except reselling" etc. But finally, we settled down on trading. I sent item to him, he checked it, and sent his stuff to me. I did not even know the guy, but that does not matter that much, I am for his gun, and that gun was indeed his gun, that's easily verified.

09-04-2017, 09:57 AM	#9
unitedcs User Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Land O Lakes, Florida Posts: 90 Thanks: 8 Thanked 30 Times in 15 Posts	All this I know. But nice to remove any doubt in such transactions

09-04-2017, 10:12 AM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Believe or not, gun transactions involve risks. No matter who the seller is. Even reputable dealers have mis-described items. But I got your point -- better control that risk. That's a big topic. Another hint is what this guy usually trades and sells... if a store usually sells Timex, and one day, they throw out a Rolex, no matter it's genuine or not, at least... isn't it suspicious... not saying it's definitely a troublesome item, but it's not an item they handle in daily basis... they probably don't know it at all. But gun transaction is usually not that bad. Most guns good on pictures are also good in hand. Some are not, but those are not common cases.

09-04-2017, 12:48 PM	#14
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Trading is always a bit tricky. I mean it's almost impossible that somebody owns exactly what you're looking for and at the same time is looking for what you're trying to sell. In the past I traded some guns but I never really stroke a bargain, so the bottom line is stay away from any sort of trade. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.