1917 dated 1914 Navy luger- taken into police service - 4" TP barrel re-work, # 8128

[DonVoigt]

This pistol started service as a 6" Navy luger, and still has most of its original numbered parts;
exceptions are : barrel, which is a TP(Technical Police) barrel; rear toggle pin with wide flange; striker is a fluted replacement with no number; grips are beech with no number; and as usual- the magazine.

The magazine is an interesting single acceptance Erfurt mag with large "359" stamped, it appears to have been a replacement mag as there are no numbers of normal size under the 359.

Pistol has been refinished - during rework. It must have been in pretty rough shape, as the original navy markings on the left chamber are quite weak, and the added serial number there much stronger. Usually the sear safety is added after finish, and the rivet is "in the white" , in this example, the bottom of the pin is blue- but it does show a pin prick after finish, in the white-perhaps to tighten a loose rivet?

The blue presently shows light wear and discoloration under the finish, so I think it period and not a later enhancement.


A good example of the serial being added to the left chamber after original mfg, i.e. at rework. The original take down lever and side plate are numbered on the bottom in the Navy/commercial style and -interestingly-the side plate has the added "28" in exposed fashion, but the TD lever does not. The replacement small head toggle axle/pin is not numbered, though one would expect it to be; shown with the correct original type pin below.

The original "28" numbered breech block and mid toggle are present, the rear toggle and its integral Navy type adjustable sight have been replaced with a newly numbered fixed sight replacement.

The TP marked and proofed barrel is not numbered, but the bore gage of 8.82 is present.

The finish applied is interesting as it appears to be hot blue on the frame and receiver. The toggle train and the sear bar do not appear to have been refinished during re-work. Edges and corners were well maintained in prep for the refinish, notice the lines and marks in the flats. The frame is blued on the inside as is the case with the hot, salt blue finish.

Timing of the rework is of interest and may be the first hot blue "police rework" I have seen or heard of.
This doesn't mean much, as I have only seen or owned what came my way.

I speculate that this Navy pistol must have continued in use or storage until about 1937, when- as the 3rd Reich was expanding its army and police numbers- it was pulled for re-work and issue to the police.

I say 1937 as it has the TP marked barrel- TP was renamed from TPV in March 1936. It has no magazine safety and was never cut for one- addition of the magazine safety was stopped in 1937.
Use of hot blue came into use(by Mauser at least) in Mid 1936. There are no police grip markings, which were also eliminated in 1936-7.

So as they say, the evidence is circumstantial at best, but I think 1937 is a good guess for the rework to police.

Comment and observations are appreciated, any similar pistols- please post pictures.

[ithacaartist]

Kudos on putting all those circumstantial puzzle pieces together, Don. Nice work. I notice the crown of the muzzle is in the white, what do you think is up with that? Is the unpainted "GESICHERT" also typical of this kind of rework?

[Edward Tinker]

Jan Still has said that a large number of lugers were hidden by the gov't until needed - until after the IMKK (?) left and later. So, I could see this being put away or possibly an officer or NCO called up to service? Perhaps a family gun from WW1 - lots of possibilities...

good show and tell

[Don M]

Don, excellent analysis of your pistol. I agree with your general thesis but think the rework may have occurred in 1935 or -36. The arming of the Gemeindepolizei with P08s was ordered in February 1934. In October 1934 it was acknowledged that this was going slower than planned because of the need to fit the pistols (presumably from the cache of these weapons) with sear and mag safeties. On p. 179 of HWIS, I note holster evidence that the stamp of the Berlin police armory changed from PTV to TP sometime in 1935.

Most Gemeindepolizei did not property stamp their P08s so the 1937 date terminating police property marks probably is not relevant for this pistol.

For what it's worth, my best guess for reworking would be 1935-36.

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Don M., I'm satisfied with 1935-37 time frame.

I lean toward the latter only because of the lack of the magazine safety and the documented time frame of its elimination; thus assuming any pistol reworked prior to that time would have had the mag safety added; and the salt blue finish. Though I have read no comment about salt blue use other than in connection with Mauser production.
Of course, the magazine safety addition could have been omitted earlier than 1937 orders, and the paperwork caught up later.

Dave,
on the muzzle- i just "assume" muzzles were polished when the barrel was made, the barrel may have been completely finished before installation- I can't decide when the TP/E was stamped, sometimes it looks after finish. But prior "art" dictated polishing the muzzle, for aesthetic effect- as it makes no practical difference.

I have several or perhaps many police lugers that when refinished the safety marking was not filled in. I suppose this was too much work for little effect? JMHO.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Of course, the magazine safety addition could have been omitted earlier than 1937 orders, and the paperwork caught up later.

You're probably correct. There was a circular directive from the Reichs and Prussian Interior Ministry in June 1936 requesting reports by 1 September 1936 on the effectiveness of sear and mag safeties. This may have been prompted by prior complaints about the mag safeties and have led to discontinuing installation of mag safeties on the P08s being prepared for the Gemeindepolizei in late 1936.