Number Of Lugers in .45 Cal. ???

Pete Ebbink · 06-09-2002, 01:57 PM

I certainly do not want to restoke the "bon fire" that raged on our old Forum about a certain .45 carbine luger. Please believe me...!

But I was still left with the haunting question of how many .45 lugers GL and his associates might have made...

I ran across this interesting paragraph in John Walter's "The Luger Book", 1991 edition, on page 194 :

" Pistol No. 2 still exists, though the other was probably destroyed by the US Army prior to 1914. Others are occassionally reported: number 4, for example, is said to have been found in Germany at the end of the Second World War and taken to the USA as a souvenir, and a gun apparently numbered '14' was pictured in the first edition of "Luger". Though the authenticity of all guns other than no. 2 has been questioned, the late August Weiss once quoted his predeccessor, Heinrich Hoffmann, averring that 'no more than six 0.45in calibre guns' were ever made. Thus, it is clear that there were more 0.45 guns than the two supplied to the US Army - but there is no evidence that they were numbered consecutively. "

Did not know if all Forum members were aware of Walter's 1991 statements...

Joe · 06-09-2002, 02:17 PM

[img]confused.gif[/img]

Has anyone else seen or heard talk of an original .45 caliber Luger displayed at a museum in Shreveport, LA? I did some research a while back and believe it may be at The R.W. Norton
Art Gallery. I know it seems out of place there, but I'd love to see it if it's true. I'm going to call to inquire about it when they open this afternoon.

Johnny Peppers · 06-09-2002, 03:19 PM

Joe,
The .45 Luger is indeed on display at the Norton Gallery in Shreveport, Louisiana. Reportedly the pistol came out of Canada, and was to be purchased by Carl Wilson who once owned the only known "Baby" Luger. This was in the early 1960's when you could still fly with a firearm, and when Carl met the owner of the .45 Luger to close the deal, the owner had gone up $1000 on the agreed upon price which was either $4000 or $5000. Out of principal, Carl did not take the pistol, but later admitted to the late Pat Redmond that it was the biggest mistake of his Luger collecting career. The pistol was then bought by Harry Jones who within the month had sold it to Mr. Norton for $10,000. There was an engraver in Shreveport by the name of Prudhomme, and Mr. Norton admired his work. Several very collectible firearms were engraved by Prudhomme for Mr. Norton, and it is lucky that he never had the big Luger engraved.
The .45 Luger in the Norton gallery is thought to have remained in the DWM factory as either the prototype or backup to the two sent to the US, and was probably sold at some later date as it is nitro proofed.
The history of the Norton Gallery .45 Luger was related by the late Pat Redmond, who later bought the "Baby" Luger from Carl Wilson.

Pete Ebbink · 06-09-2002, 03:58 PM

Johnny,

Joe reports he contacted the Norton gallery and their .45 luger is No. 3. Is this the one that was shot in the 1960 with 150 rounds or so with not stoppages ?

Does anyone know who owns No. 2 now days ?

Johnny Peppers · 06-09-2002, 04:11 PM

Pete,
I have seen the .45 Luger on several occasions, but it is not displayed where you can see the entire pistol. Probably the most significant piece in the gallery and is displayed terribly. I have a good friend that did collect Lugers who lives only a few blocks from the Norton Gallery, and I will check with him but I don't believe the pistol is serial numbered. I may be wrong about this, but I believe the 3 is on the magazine. I will make a point of checking this out with him.
By the way, did you get the e-mail of the British proofs?

Joe · 06-09-2002, 07:33 PM

Johnny --

Thanks for the update!

Pete Ebbink · 06-09-2002, 10:25 PM

Hello Johnny,

Thanks for the additional info. on whether No. 3 .45 luger is in the Norton gallery. Let us know when your friend confirms.

Does any one know what happened to No. 2 that was the US back-up for the No. 1 that was shot through the trials ?

Johnny, see my latest post in the General Discussions" sections about those British proofs...I have some addtional questions for you there...

Johnny Peppers · 06-09-2002, 11:52 PM

Pete,
When Scott Meadows was writing his latest book "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols 1894-1920" he was not aware of the .45 Luger in the Norton Gallery. In conversation the .45 Luger was brought up, and I mentioned the fact that he didn't live too terribly far from a .45 Luger. He visited with the Norton Gallery to try and gain information on the pistol, but was not allowed to view the Luger other than just like anyone else that walked in off the street.
There is a picture of the Luger in his book, but is probably one provided by the Norton Gallery. The only person known to have actually examined the pistol was Joe Schroeder who appraised it for the Norton Gallery for their insurance company.
By the way, the Scott Meadows book has a great section on the test Lugers.

Hugh · 06-10-2002, 12:38 AM

I have also seen the 45 Luger at the Norton Gallery, and as far as I could determine, there was no serial number on the gun. I agree with Johnny that it could certainly be displayed better. I think the Gallery owners could care less about the gun collection, they are big into the art aspect of the collections. There are some very nice Lugers, Borchardts, and other guns there also, it would behove anyone traveling thru Shreveport to take the time to tour the Gallery.

Imperial Arms · 06-10-2002, 09:43 AM

Pete,

The .45 Luger serial #2 is owned by Richard Ellis according to the information I heard a few years ago and I believe that he is still the current owner. Apparently, it is available for sale but I do not know the asking price.

AlbertImperial Arms Website

Mike Jones · 06-10-2002, 06:31 PM

Maybe I can help a little with 45s,as I have handled both guns, The Gun in the Norton Gallery has NO serial number, It was purchased out of canada in 1960 and was fired 150 times (I still have the empty brass). The numer 2 (with magazine #21) is still in the U.S. In Walters 1st book he says the gun pictured is sn 14, but it is the un-numbered gun. In his second book he says the gun shown is sn 1 but is sn 2.

Pete Ebbink · 06-11-2002, 01:15 AM

Does anyone know if Luger No. 4 in .45 cal. was ever found, as John Walter reported... ? (see my opening post...)

Edward Tinker · 06-11-2002, 01:26 AM

[quote] mrj833 Maybe I can help a little with 45s,as I have handled both guns, The Gun in the Norton Gallery has NO serial number, It was purchased out of canada in 1960 and was fired 150 times (I still have the empty brass). The numer 2 (with magazine #21) is still in the U.S. In Walters 1st book he says the gun pictured is sn 14, but it is the un-numbered gun. In his second book he says the gun shown is sn 1 but is sn 2. <hr></blockquote>

Hey that is too cool. What is the story on that? How in the world were you able to handle both, let alone shoot it.

I have talked to one other person that said they shot it, plus read a story in one of the Gun Magazines.

Tell me more, I am dying to find out?

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Mike Jones · 06-11-2002, 11:15 AM

An old time collector (who has passed away) claimed to have found SN 4 .45 in about 1973 when photos were sent they were of the Norton gun. My father Harry Jones bought the un-numbered gun out of Canada in 1960 and we fired it 150 times on the way to a gun show in Yuma Az.

John Sabato · 06-11-2002, 11:33 AM

Welcome - (mrj833) Mr. Michael Jones... it is a pleasure to have you here as a new member of the Lugerforum... We hope you visit often and make us the beneficiary of your Luger knowledge.

Greg · 06-11-2002, 12:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mrj833:
<strong>An old time collector (who has passed away) claimed to have found SN 4 .45 in about 1973 when photos were sent they were of the Norton gun. My father Harry Jones bought the un-numbered gun out of Canada in 1960 and we fired it 150 times on the way to a gun show in Yuma Az.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Michael,

Did your father ever obtain any information as to how the .45 got to Canada, and maybe some of it's history? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Mike Jones · 06-11-2002, 01:04 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Greg:
<strong>

Michael,

Did your father ever obtain any information as to how the .45 got to Canada, and maybe some of it's history? [img]smile.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote>

Greg,
Have just started going through 50+ years of gun correspondence and files and of course nothing is in any kind of order.Am sure I have the answers to your question and will post when I find them.

Mike

John Sabato · 06-11-2002, 01:39 PM

That would be great Michael... if you could clear up any of the mystery surrounding the .45 Caliber Lugers...

We will be waiting...

Imperial Arms · 06-11-2002, 02:58 PM

I have heard that Luger .45 serial #4 is in the Tampa. Florida area and it might be questionable. Last year, a collector who was interested in buying the pistol and, who had examined the pistol, asked me some questions about it and we had heard similar 'stories' about its authenticity. I recall vaguely that there was an article written about this pistol by Mr. Krommeyer in Germany many years ago, but I never read it.

John Sabato · 06-11-2002, 03:05 PM

Perhaps one of our forum members that live in Germany might remember this article and comment...

At least I hope they do... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

06-09-2002, 01:57 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Number Of Lugers in .45 Cal. ??? I certainly do not want to restoke the "bon fire" that raged on our old Forum about a certain .45 carbine luger. Please believe me...! But I was still left with the haunting question of how many .45 lugers GL and his associates might have made... I ran across this interesting paragraph in John Walter's "The Luger Book", 1991 edition, on page 194 : " Pistol No. 2 still exists, though the other was probably destroyed by the US Army prior to 1914. Others are occassionally reported: number 4, for example, is said to have been found in Germany at the end of the Second World War and taken to the USA as a souvenir, and a gun apparently numbered '14' was pictured in the first edition of "Luger". Though the authenticity of all guns other than no. 2 has been questioned, the late August Weiss once quoted his predeccessor, Heinrich Hoffmann, averring that 'no more than six 0.45in calibre guns' were ever made. Thus, it is clear that there were more 0.45 guns than the two supplied to the US Army - but there is no evidence that they were numbered consecutively. " Did not know if all Forum members were aware of Walter's 1991 statements...

06-10-2002, 12:38 AM	#9
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	I have also seen the 45 Luger at the Norton Gallery, and as far as I could determine, there was no serial number on the gun. I agree with Johnny that it could certainly be displayed better. I think the Gallery owners could care less about the gun collection, they are big into the art aspect of the collections. There are some very nice Lugers, Borchardts, and other guns there also, it would behove anyone traveling thru Shreveport to take the time to tour the Gallery. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-11-2002, 01:26 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	[quote] mrj833 Maybe I can help a little with 45s,as I have handled both guns, The Gun in the Norton Gallery has NO serial number, It was purchased out of canada in 1960 and was fired 150 times (I still have the empty brass). The numer 2 (with magazine #21) is still in the U.S. In Walters 1st book he says the gun pictured is sn 14, but it is the un-numbered gun. In his second book he says the gun shown is sn 1 but is sn 2. <hr></blockquote> Hey that is too cool. What is the story on that? How in the world were you able to handle both, let alone shoot it. I have talked to one other person that said they shot it, plus read a story in one of the Gun Magazines. Tell me more, I am dying to find out? [img]tongue.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-11-2002, 11:33 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Welcome - (mrj833) Mr. Michael Jones... it is a pleasure to have you here as a new member of the Lugerforum... We hope you visit often and make us the beneficiary of your Luger knowledge. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-11-2002, 01:39 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	That would be great Michael... if you could clear up any of the mystery surrounding the .45 Caliber Lugers... We will be waiting... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-09-2002, 02:17 PM	#2
Joe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 96 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[img]confused.gif[/img] Has anyone else seen or heard talk of an original .45 caliber Luger displayed at a museum in Shreveport, LA? I did some research a while back and believe it may be at The R.W. Norton Art Gallery. I know it seems out of place there, but I'd love to see it if it's true. I'm going to call to inquire about it when they open this afternoon.

06-09-2002, 03:19 PM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Joe, The .45 Luger is indeed on display at the Norton Gallery in Shreveport, Louisiana. Reportedly the pistol came out of Canada, and was to be purchased by Carl Wilson who once owned the only known "Baby" Luger. This was in the early 1960's when you could still fly with a firearm, and when Carl met the owner of the .45 Luger to close the deal, the owner had gone up $1000 on the agreed upon price which was either $4000 or $5000. Out of principal, Carl did not take the pistol, but later admitted to the late Pat Redmond that it was the biggest mistake of his Luger collecting career. The pistol was then bought by Harry Jones who within the month had sold it to Mr. Norton for $10,000. There was an engraver in Shreveport by the name of Prudhomme, and Mr. Norton admired his work. Several very collectible firearms were engraved by Prudhomme for Mr. Norton, and it is lucky that he never had the big Luger engraved. The .45 Luger in the Norton gallery is thought to have remained in the DWM factory as either the prototype or backup to the two sent to the US, and was probably sold at some later date as it is nitro proofed. The history of the Norton Gallery .45 Luger was related by the late Pat Redmond, who later bought the "Baby" Luger from Carl Wilson.

06-09-2002, 03:58 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Johnny, Joe reports he contacted the Norton gallery and their .45 luger is No. 3. Is this the one that was shot in the 1960 with 150 rounds or so with not stoppages ? Does anyone know who owns No. 2 now days ?

06-09-2002, 04:11 PM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, I have seen the .45 Luger on several occasions, but it is not displayed where you can see the entire pistol. Probably the most significant piece in the gallery and is displayed terribly. I have a good friend that did collect Lugers who lives only a few blocks from the Norton Gallery, and I will check with him but I don't believe the pistol is serial numbered. I may be wrong about this, but I believe the 3 is on the magazine. I will make a point of checking this out with him. By the way, did you get the e-mail of the British proofs?

06-09-2002, 07:33 PM	#6
Joe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 96 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Johnny -- Thanks for the update!

06-09-2002, 10:25 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Johnny, Thanks for the additional info. on whether No. 3 .45 luger is in the Norton gallery. Let us know when your friend confirms. Does any one know what happened to No. 2 that was the US back-up for the No. 1 that was shot through the trials ? Johnny, see my latest post in the General Discussions" sections about those British proofs...I have some addtional questions for you there...

06-09-2002, 11:52 PM	#8
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, When Scott Meadows was writing his latest book "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols 1894-1920" he was not aware of the .45 Luger in the Norton Gallery. In conversation the .45 Luger was brought up, and I mentioned the fact that he didn't live too terribly far from a .45 Luger. He visited with the Norton Gallery to try and gain information on the pistol, but was not allowed to view the Luger other than just like anyone else that walked in off the street. There is a picture of the Luger in his book, but is probably one provided by the Norton Gallery. The only person known to have actually examined the pistol was Joe Schroeder who appraised it for the Norton Gallery for their insurance company. By the way, the Scott Meadows book has a great section on the test Lugers.

06-10-2002, 09:43 AM	#10
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Pete, The .45 Luger serial #2 is owned by Richard Ellis according to the information I heard a few years ago and I believe that he is still the current owner. Apparently, it is available for sale but I do not know the asking price. AlbertImperial Arms Website

06-10-2002, 06:31 PM	#11
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Maybe I can help a little with 45s,as I have handled both guns, The Gun in the Norton Gallery has NO serial number, It was purchased out of canada in 1960 and was fired 150 times (I still have the empty brass). The numer 2 (with magazine #21) is still in the U.S. In Walters 1st book he says the gun pictured is sn 14, but it is the un-numbered gun. In his second book he says the gun shown is sn 1 but is sn 2.

06-11-2002, 01:15 AM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Does anyone know if Luger No. 4 in .45 cal. was ever found, as John Walter reported... ? (see my opening post...)

06-11-2002, 11:15 AM	#14
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	An old time collector (who has passed away) claimed to have found SN 4 .45 in about 1973 when photos were sent they were of the Norton gun. My father Harry Jones bought the un-numbered gun out of Canada in 1960 and we fired it 150 times on the way to a gun show in Yuma Az.

06-11-2002, 12:20 PM	#16
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[quote]Originally posted by mrj833: <strong>An old time collector (who has passed away) claimed to have found SN 4 .45 in about 1973 when photos were sent they were of the Norton gun. My father Harry Jones bought the un-numbered gun out of Canada in 1960 and we fired it 150 times on the way to a gun show in Yuma Az.</strong><hr></blockquote> Michael, Did your father ever obtain any information as to how the .45 got to Canada, and maybe some of it's history? [img]smile.gif[/img]

06-11-2002, 01:04 PM	#17
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Greg: <strong> Michael, Did your father ever obtain any information as to how the .45 got to Canada, and maybe some of it's history? [img]smile.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote> Greg, Have just started going through 50+ years of gun correspondence and files and of course nothing is in any kind of order.Am sure I have the answers to your question and will post when I find them. Mike

06-11-2002, 02:58 PM	#19
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I have heard that Luger .45 serial #4 is in the Tampa. Florida area and it might be questionable. Last year, a collector who was interested in buying the pistol and, who had examined the pistol, asked me some questions about it and we had heard similar 'stories' about its authenticity. I recall vaguely that there was an article written about this pistol by Mr. Krommeyer in Germany many years ago, but I never read it.

06-11-2002, 03:05 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Perhaps one of our forum members that live in Germany might remember this article and comment... At least I hope they do... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*