[Identify] Need some help with "Franken"Luger

F15E_WSO · 07-28-2018, 02:24 PM

Good morning all,
Happy to be new to the Luger forum as I now have my Dad's Luger back!! After looking at this forum and photos here, it is clear once again that "maintenance, care and feeding" was NOT one of my dad's strong suits!!
I poured over the markings in this pdf catalog https://www.selfdefensefund.com/wp-c...7/09/Luger.pdf but not much help.

There is adequate matching of the S/N 3825 (25s) throughout the mainbody but things get sketchy after that...Standard DWM across the top and then things begin to unravel. No S/N on the barrel, two proofs that I can't make out on the barrel along with the calibre (7.65).

Trying to upload photos, here's link to imgur for album there. https://imgur.com/a/qmTkMvV Imgur photos will be larger, better for zooming.

If I could get some feedback on the ID of the gun would be thankful. Will gladly post additional photo, zoomed/macro'd as necessary to help anyone kind enough to help me.

Some provenance on the gun; family from France, fled to North Africa during WWII, returned to France later. I know my father had the gun in the US for past 55 yrs. Don't know if he got it in Europe Post-War, picked up during war? And everyone is dead now so can't ask them.

Finally, will break down gun and clean and start to refurbish.....If I could also ask that you list the first 3 things you would do regarding getting this luger back in health.

Thanks in advance

DonVoigt · 07-28-2018, 10:57 PM

How about a picture of the top of the chamber? And a better picture of the circular marking on the right side of the receiver.

So far, I can see the DWM receiver was re-barreled commercially and re-proved in Germany.
The E/N is a nitro proof, and the E/J an indication of re-buliding/replacement of the barrel.

gunbugs · 07-28-2018, 11:31 PM

It actually looks like a pretty good commercial 30cal. to me. I wouldn't do anything but a thorough disassembly and cleaning. I wouln't "refurbish" anything. Remember Antiques roadshow... 10 percent original finish is better than 100 percent refinish.

F15E_WSO · 07-29-2018, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

How about a picture of the top of the chamber? And a better picture of the circular marking on the right side of the receiver.

So far, I can see the DWM receiver was re-barreled commercially and re-proved in Germany.
The E/N is a nitro proof, and the E/J an indication of re-buliding/replacement of the barrel.

DonVoigt, thank you for the response and insight. Can I get you to clarify "top of the chamber"? Is that with the toggle open? I will also get a better picture of the circular marking as requested.

F15E_WSO · 07-29-2018, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunbugs

It actually looks like a pretty good commercial 30cal. to me. I wouldn't do anything but a thorough disassembly and cleaning. I wouln't "refurbish" anything. Remember Antiques roadshow... 10 percent original finish is better than 100 percent refinish.

Gunbugs, thanks for the response. "Commercial"? as in production for general sale and police? Not Mil?

Disassembled, lots of lithium grease!?, cleaned reassembled, now hunting .30 Luger ammo locally.

DavidJayUden · 07-29-2018, 12:37 AM

I'd go straight to on-line sources for .30 Luger, maybe Gunbroker.com, etc. Cheaper, about as fast, more variety, etc.
dju

F15E_WSO · 07-29-2018, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

I'd go straight to on-line sources for .30 Luger, maybe Gunbroker.com, etc. Cheaper, about as fast, more variety, etc.
dju

David, I've ID'd a few via AmmoSeek but before I pay $15 in shipping on a box of 50 I'm hoping to get a single box locally and ensure the gun works. Once I know it works then I will buy online most likely.

DonVoigt · 07-29-2018, 09:04 AM

Top of the chamber is just that, toggle open or closed your choice.
should be some markings there, unless removed.

Lugerdoc · 07-29-2018, 09:54 AM

Judging from the markings on the right chamber area, this pistol was never completed by DWM during WW1, rather the parts were assembled later (after 1939) by a licensed German gunsmith, showing an overabundance of his test firing proofs. The circular marking, with the cross swords, is a British proof house markings, that was required to sell foreign made pistols in GB. TH

F15E_WSO · 07-29-2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Judging from the markings on the right chamber area, this pistol was never completed by DWM during WW1, rather the parts were assembled later (after 1939) by a licensed German gunsmith, showing an overabundance of his test firing proofs. The circular marking, with the cross swords, is a British proof house markings, that was required to sell foreign made pistols in GB. TH

Thanks for making sense of some of that overlayed stuff. Like "overabundance of his test firing"!! My grandfather left France from Dunkirk and was an Instructor Pilot in the UK for a short time and then sent to Canada to teach there. Maybe he picked it up in the UK?

F15E_WSO · 07-29-2018, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Top of the chamber is just that, toggle open or closed your choice.
should be some markings there, unless removed.

Various additional pictures and macro shots. Thanks for the help.

Link to imgur album
https://imgur.com/a/tkewOEA

gunbugs · 07-30-2018, 01:29 AM

The only thing I see that is really out of place is the mismatch rear toggle.

Edward Tinker · 07-30-2018, 03:12 AM

So, what I see is a DWM luger, made WWI era, later rebarreled into 30 luger, with lots of interesting acceptance and proof markings.

DonVoigt · 07-30-2018, 09:22 AM

As Ed says, I'll add that the receiver is from an artillery luger.
The proof marks of E/N and E/J are according to the German law proof law of 1940.
So this re-work/re-build of a WWI era luger was done after 1940 and before 1945.

Large and small factories were doing these "re-works" and the circle on the right of the receiver is likely a trademark or maker/seller mark from the 1940 era(JMHO).

Vono and Anchutz were large concerns doing this- but this is not their mark.
It IS Luneschloss; (but I do not recognize the mark and have not seen it before).
Update: 8-18-2018, Klaus says it is Franken and Luneschloss, see post below!

I do not believe it is a British/English proof mark, as it is not the correct size, style or location- though it could be a retailer mark- and would have to post date the 1940 time frame of the pistol if English- later than 1946.

Lugerdoc · 07-30-2018, 11:41 AM

After further thought, i agree with Don above. TH

F15E_WSO · 07-30-2018, 10:22 PM

Thanks to all for the help and inputs here.

wlyon · 07-31-2018, 12:10 AM

I agree it is not an English proof mark.

klaus 3338 · 08-18-2018, 03:04 AM

...reworked by Franken und Lünenschloß

Sergio Natali · 08-18-2018, 02:03 PM

Interesting pistol, with all those acceptance and proof markings too bad it can't talk.

F15E_WSO · 08-18-2018, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klaus 3338

...reworked by Franken und Lünenschloß

Yes Sir!!! That is clearly it. Thank you for the find and tying the proof to a name. Well done.

07-28-2018, 02:24 PM	#1
F15E_WSO User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Nellis AFB NV Posts: 52 Thanks: 55 Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts	[Identify] Need some help with "Franken"Luger Good morning all, Happy to be new to the Luger forum as I now have my Dad's Luger back!! After looking at this forum and photos here, it is clear once again that "maintenance, care and feeding" was NOT one of my dad's strong suits!! I poured over the markings in this pdf catalog https://www.selfdefensefund.com/wp-c...7/09/Luger.pdf but not much help. There is adequate matching of the S/N 3825 (25s) throughout the mainbody but things get sketchy after that...Standard DWM across the top and then things begin to unravel. No S/N on the barrel, two proofs that I can't make out on the barrel along with the calibre (7.65). Trying to upload photos, here's link to imgur for album there. https://imgur.com/a/qmTkMvV Imgur photos will be larger, better for zooming. If I could get some feedback on the ID of the gun would be thankful. Will gladly post additional photo, zoomed/macro'd as necessary to help anyone kind enough to help me. Some provenance on the gun; family from France, fled to North Africa during WWII, returned to France later. I know my father had the gun in the US for past 55 yrs. Don't know if he got it in Europe Post-War, picked up during war? And everyone is dead now so can't ask them. Finally, will break down gun and clean and start to refurbish.....If I could also ask that you list the first 3 things you would do regarding getting this luger back in health. Thanks in advance Attached Thumbnails

07-28-2018, 10:57 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	How about a picture of the top of the chamber? And a better picture of the circular marking on the right side of the receiver. So far, I can see the DWM receiver was re-barreled commercially and re-proved in Germany. The E/N is a nitro proof, and the E/J an indication of re-buliding/replacement of the barrel. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-29-2018, 09:04 AM	#8
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Top of the chamber is just that, toggle open or closed your choice. should be some markings there, unless removed. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-29-2018, 09:54 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Judging from the markings on the right chamber area, this pistol was never completed by DWM during WW1, rather the parts were assembled later (after 1939) by a licensed German gunsmith, showing an overabundance of his test firing proofs. The circular marking, with the cross swords, is a British proof house markings, that was required to sell foreign made pistols in GB. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

07-30-2018, 03:12 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	So, what I see is a DWM luger, made WWI era, later rebarreled into 30 luger, with lots of interesting acceptance and proof markings. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-28-2018, 11:31 PM	#3
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 660 Thanks: 366 Thanked 1,179 Times in 395 Posts	It actually looks like a pretty good commercial 30cal. to me. I wouldn't do anything but a thorough disassembly and cleaning. I wouln't "refurbish" anything. Remember Antiques roadshow... 10 percent original finish is better than 100 percent refinish.

07-29-2018, 12:37 AM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'd go straight to on-line sources for .30 Luger, maybe Gunbroker.com, etc. Cheaper, about as fast, more variety, etc. dju

07-30-2018, 01:29 AM	#12
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 660 Thanks: 366 Thanked 1,179 Times in 395 Posts	The only thing I see that is really out of place is the mismatch rear toggle.

07-30-2018, 09:22 AM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	As Ed says, I'll add that the receiver is from an artillery luger. The proof marks of E/N and E/J are according to the German law proof law of 1940. So this re-work/re-build of a WWI era luger was done after 1940 and before 1945. Large and small factories were doing these "re-works" and the circle on the right of the receiver is likely a trademark or maker/seller mark from the 1940 era(JMHO). Vono and Anchutz were large concerns doing this- but this is not their mark. It IS Luneschloss; (but I do not recognize the mark and have not seen it before). Update: 8-18-2018, Klaus says it is Franken and Luneschloss, see post below! I do not believe it is a British/English proof mark, as it is not the correct size, style or location- though it could be a retailer mark- and would have to post date the 1940 time frame of the pistol if English- later than 1946. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-30-2018, 11:41 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	After further thought, i agree with Don above. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

07-30-2018, 10:22 PM	#16
F15E_WSO User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Nellis AFB NV Posts: 52 Thanks: 55 Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts	Thanks to all for the help and inputs here.

07-31-2018, 12:10 AM	#17
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,637 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,561 Times in 956 Posts	I agree it is not an English proof mark. __________________ Bill Lyon

08-18-2018, 03:04 AM	#18
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 411 Times in 160 Posts	...reworked by Franken und Lünenschloß Attached Thumbnails

08-18-2018, 02:03 PM	#19
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Interesting pistol, with all those acceptance and proof markings too bad it can't talk. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.