A 1800 Meter Luger !

[sheepherder]

A 1600 meter Luger???
What??? There ain't no such thing!!!

Well, in that case...We'll have to make one!!!

Here's a look down the barrel of the '1600 Meter Luger'...



It's been a while since I did a 'Fantasy Artillery' barrel, and I had some odds and ends lying around, so I whipped up a long-barrel Luger with an 1894 Swedish Mauser carbine sight on it. Here's an abbreviated pictorial of my mis-adventures (leaving out the mistakes)...



I'll start out with a pic of some of the tools and parts available, or that had to be made along the way.



The machine work starts with the Swedish Mauser 1600 meter rear sight, sourced from eBay some time back.



1. The rear sight had been rudely hammered off the barrel by some unknown hack, and had metal deformation that couldn't all be restored. So I milled off the excess.

2. A Green Mountain 9mm barrel blank being skim cut on the lathe for concentricity. 4140 steel, 1:10 twist.

3. Turning down one end to form the breech stub.

4. Threading the breech stub, 18mm x 20tpi.

Next up is fitting the barrel extension.



5. Receiver fitted to stub. nice snug fit.

6. Turning the relief at the breech face.

7. Turning down the base where the rear sight sits.

8. Fitting the Swedish Mauser rear sight.

Next up we turn to the muzzle end.

(Edit: Quick pic of what it looks like when turning down the barrel)...



Ooh! Them chips gets hot!

[sheepherder]

Proceeding to the muzzle end...



9. Turning down the muzzle for the screw-on front sight band & blade.

10. Threading the muzzle to 1/2" x 28tpi.

11. A threaded block of steel fitted to the barrel muzzle.

12. Squaring the block to the bore.

Some more work to the barrel OD.



13. Cutting the taper to the exposed section of barrel.

14 & 15. Reaming the chamber. Clymer 9mm finishing chambering reamer, 1/32" at a time. Slow revolutions, oiling every 1/32", and blowing out the chips after every 1/32" cut.

16. Wups! A little out of sequence - Drilling the block of steel for the front sight band/blade.

More work on the front sight.



17. Tapping the front sight block 1/2" x 28tpi.

18. Relieving the sight block. Necessary because I can't thread right up against the barrel thread.

19. Milling down the sides of the sight.

20. Sight block is now mounted on a mandrel (old M16 barrel stub) and held in a 'superspacer' with a 4-jaw chuck. Circular milling the muzzle protrusion.

Still milling the front sight...



21. Just about halfway done...

22. Circumference of sight band is 98% completed.

23. Finish milling the muzzle protrusion.

24. Finish milling the circumference.

Had to stop operations on the barrel and make up a new barrel vise insert.



A. Facing each end of a 1 1/2" 6061 aluminum rod, and cutting a groove in one end.

B. Boring out the correct taper to fit this barrel.

C. Cutting the finished bored vise insert in two, and filing all edges.

Next up is to cut the front sight blade.

[sheepherder]

Milling the front sight 'blade'.



25. Finished front sight fitted to barrel.

26. Squaring/shortening muzzle protrusion.

27. Milling sides of 'blade'; milling top to 1º angle.

28. Milling radius on front of 'blade'.

Had to break off barrel work again, to make a spanner for that front sight.



A. Boring the hole in a block of 5/8" x 1 1/2" 6061 aluminum.

B. Milling a clearance slot for the 'blade'.

Next will be finishing operations on the front sight.



29. Beveling the muzzle.

30. Crowning the muzzle bore.

31. Setup to mill the chamber ramp.

32. Milling the ramp, using a 10mm end mill.

Finishing operations at the breech end of the barrel.



33 & 34. Cutting the extractor notch with Woodruff keyway cutters.

35. Drill & tap the rear sight base retaining screw (#6 x 48tpi).

36. Setup to cut a Patridge notch in the rear sight to replace the 'V' notch: finished cut.

Getting near the end...

At this point, my machine work on this 'fantasy barrel' is done. It needs to be sent out for final finishing and bluing, and when it comes back I'll assemble it and check functioning.

[sheepherder]

Couple of pics of my setups, using spirit levels. Mostly for my machine notes, as I forget how I did something unless I take pics for reference.

Setup for cutting the extractor notch relative to the front sight.



Setup for leveling the front sight to cut the 'blade'.



Setting up to cut the feed ramp.

[sheepherder]

When I have more than one project waiting for space & tooling on the mill table, I try to plan to do similar machine operations together. So if I'm using the rotary indexing head ['superspacer'] to mill the Luger front sight, I'll follow that with another comparable procedure.

Following the Luger front sight, while I had the 80+ pound superspacer on the table, I set up a jig to mill curved slots in 1911 triggers. The JT Masen Co used to offer a skeletonized long trigger for the 1911. It was similar to the Colt Gold Cup trigger, but with the narrower trigger blade in the 1911. (The Gold Cup blade is .350" wide; the 1911 is .250"). They no longer offer it, and other vendors offer other styles of skeletonized triggers but not with the Gold Cup profile.

But JT Masen does still sell the steel long 1911 trigger, so I decided to make my own skeletonized triggers.

But I needed to design a jig to hold the trigger, and revolve it while milling the curved slot. It took me a week of 3-4 hour workdays to turn out a satisfactory piece. Two of those days were trial & error with wood mockups, trying to figure out how to locate the piece in the jig and then rotate it.

Here's the finished jig, with a 'raw' trigger in place. Looks simple, and it is, but it was a PITA to design.



It's only about 3 inches by 4 inches, aluminum, and clamps in a 4-jaw chuck mounted on the rotary indexing head. Here's how it works...



1. The 'raw' steel trigger is clamped in the jig, resting against a Nylon disk with a dimple in the exact center. A steel pointer is chucked in the mill quill and centered on the dimple.

2. I want my slot to be 3/32" away from all three edges of the front of the trigger, so I chuck a 3/16" drill rod in the quill chuck and locate it 3/32" from the edges.

3. Now I center drill each end, just a shallow indentation.

4. I drill through each end with a 1/8" drill.

Moving to next pic...



5. Next I enlarge the two holes to 3/16".

6. Finally I load the 3/16" 4-flute end mill and start rotating the indexing head along the curve. The centerline of the curve is ~.875" from the center dimple of the Nylon disk. I take .020" cuts, and rotate slowly, to eliminate or at least reduce the tendency of the thin end mill to 'wander'.

7. Completed slot.

8. The tooling used. The C-clamp has been ground to allow low mounting. The C-clamp actually secures the trigger between the two aluminum blocks; the socket head cap screw just holds the trigger flat against the base.

My next project will be to make up a 'plug' to allow quick centering of the indexing head under the quill. I've been just marking the table with a magic marker but the marks keep rubbing off. A plug in the center of the indexing head that can be centered under the quill with be a real time saver.

[Major Tom]

Neat project! I drool over all your tooling, wish I had a set up like that.
At 1600 meters, I would thick the 9mm bullet wouldn't have the velocity to punch holes in paper. Maybe just bounce off? 8-)

[DavidJayUden]

Thanks for sharing! Have you fired it and if so how far out?
dju

[DonVoigt]

Rich,
super set of pictures and "how I did it" write up!

I'd like to know a couple "details":
-what angle to the bore do you cut the feed ramp?
-also the angle of the extractor cuts.

Great how to do it, too.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I'd like to know a couple "details":
-what angle to the bore do you cut the feed ramp?
-also the angle of the extractor cuts.

The extractor cut is as specified in the blueprints; 53º.

Gerry has a post in a related thread outlining the feed ramp angle.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=37697

[Rick W.]

I was curious of the angles on the feedramp and the extractor cut too. So I thought either John S's nicely done schematics or the appendix to the book, The Dutch Luger. I don't have John's redo's yet, but have the Dutch Luger book.

The appendix shows the two cuts, the extractor is 51 degrees I believe; appears that the other reference would suggest 53 degrees. I have not noticed that before, so learned something again.

The appendix dwg shows the feed ramp without an angle reference, although the angles visually look similar to me(says the guy with bad eyes). The area is referenced heavily to surfaces and bore line with Cartesian dimensions, so with a little trig, one could get there. For years, I did the crude garage version on such with Cartesian measurements and connect the dots carefully.

Obviously 2 degrees is not much to talk about in most cases. We all grow up in the awe of German craftsmanship here in the states, so we assume(that funny word again) that parts are made to a set of theoretical master documents. Well...........not quite everyone.......but have to reflect on the job done back then by those guys.

I think both cuts take a little discretion as too deep towards the muzzle will cause gap space to occur, and the case only has so much insurance at the web. Especially for the guys that shoot +++++++++++P ammo in their Lugers(not me.... .

Thanks for the pictorial, always interesting to see technique. The front ramp was a new thing to me, appreciate especially seeing that.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

The appendix shows the two cuts, the extractor is 51 degrees I believe...

Here's the print from TBLAP; red line points to extractor notch angle, yellow triangle is the ramp. 1.8mm on one side; 2.77mm on the other. It's a right triangle and the hypotenuse is not relevant - using trig table you can work out what the print says the angle is.

But in terms of case blowout, since the extractor cut is given as 53º, you really can't go too far wrong using that, if you don't like the trig answer.

[Rick W.]

I thought the difference in angles, however slight, was an oddity in these dwgs, just surprised me a little.

Angle is angle................but advancement of said angle up the bore is always blowout sensitive.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Here's the print from TBLAP; red line points to extractor notch angle, yellow triangle is the ramp. 1.8mm on one side; 2.77mm on the other. It's a right triangle and the hypotenuse is not relevant - using trig table you can work out what the print says the angle is.

But in terms of case blowout, since the extractor cut is given as 53º, you really can't go too far wrong using that, if you don't like the trig answer.

Rick,
I know what the drawing says, I just wondered what angle you actually used!

GT and I argue over the best ramp angle, he likes a steeper angle, I like a flatter angle. But not more than about 5 degrees different.

Just wondering what you actually set up to cut.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

GT and I argue over the best ramp angle, he likes a steeper angle, I like a flatter angle.

GT and I had that same discussion some time back. I tend to err on the side of the blueprint. I only differ by 1º from the print.

But you can't fault success. If GT has had no complaints then that must work. More than one way to skin a cat.

[Rick W.]

I reckon another simplistic approach could be just to measure a few vintage takeoff barrels on the lathe. Looks like could do that within reason. Sometimes information can be right before us within reason.

Put the perceived vintage barrel of the day in the chuck and zero out to the chamber perimeter. Most of us have the 0.0001" test indicators and adjust true chucks to support that. Then twist the compound until the indicator reads zero again with the stylus on said ramp. My mind is interested, but my body right now.......is not; so just throwing out a concept.

Not a lot of run on the ramp or extractor cut, but oughta give some idea of the original thoughts. Probably just one of those curiosities, what is a degree between friends?, I doubt if I could cut two of them alike on the same setup anymore........

To some, steeper angle means less exposure. I suspect if G.T. does some of that, it was with some research and soul searching about being proper and the bottom line..........safe. Maybe he even(heavy conjecture inserted) that he now has the compound rotary cutter we visited about long ago to do the ejector slot in one swoop.............

[DonVoigt]

If you want to be really confused, measure the ramps on "original" barrels. They are not all the same; though one never knows when or how they "got" different angles and widths.

When I cut ramps for GT, I cut to the 50 degrees he likes; when I do them for myself, I go closer to 47. I find they feed better- or at least I've convinced my self that they do . JMHO.

Extractor cut at spec is not a big issue. I don't use the two key cutters; but a Round over cutter.
I do start the cut with a normal end mill, no use wearing out the cutter removing the first "big" cut.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I don't use the two key cutters; but a Round over cutter.

Olle called my attention to a special cutter from Harvey Tool that he uses. I have their catalog, I'll see if I can find it.

Here we go...Corner rounding end mills...

http://www.harveytool.com/cat/Corner...ducts_200.aspx

Maybe if Olle sees this, he can say which one works best.

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I don't use the two key cutters; but a Round over cutter.

I just use what I've got. The cutter from Harvey would cost more in postage than the cutter itself. Plus Harvey doesn't sell to the general public; you have to order from one of their distributors.

I have a couple of Harvey's keyseat cutters specifically for Luger front sight inserts, but they are fragile.

[Rick W.]

Old habits from behind the wall I guess, we were required to compare theoretical to actuals in my old real job.

I was not aware of that variation in Luger barrel ramps or top slots.
Might just spur me on to do some measurements out of morbid curiosity.

I dreamed once of having PTG on the west coast custom grind a tool for the top extractor slot, he at the time would do steel or carbide or the tipped stuff. I have not got there($$), but would be nice; carbide would last me my lifetime I can assure you. I still have some wildcat chambering to do on the Luger framework.

I try to minimize case non support at the top and bottom of the luger tenion, just the way I was taught and too old now to change. My first attempts were with two straight mills and a touch with a file; back in the older than dirt routines huh? Things change over time............some.

I have seen nice work done by a skilled guy with files for both operations, but he had tenure sorta speak..........and the touch which I never got figured out, he made it look so easy; he was really gifted.

I am one of the use what I got guys too, but there has been times when the right tool would have saved some grey.

Tis always neat to hear how folks approach a task with these pistols, there is always room to get better I think. I still have the curiosity about such things, so thanks a lot to everyone for their time to post.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Olle called my attention to a special cutter from Harvey Tool that he uses. I have their catalog, I'll see if I can find it.

Here we go...Corner rounding end mills...

http://www.harveytool.com/cat/Corner...ducts_200.aspx

Maybe if Olle sees this, he can say which one works best.



I just use what I've got. The cutter from Harvey would cost more in postage than the cutter itself. Plus Harvey doesn't sell to the general public; you have to order from one of their distributors.

I have a couple of Harvey's keyseat cutters specifically for Luger front sight inserts, but they are fragile.

Ollie gave me the number a couple years ago.
I bought two different ones, from China via Ebay, much cheaper.
You just have to do some searching and measuring.

Takes moving the cutter side to side to get the correct width with the correct radius.

The key cutters are fine , if you are not selling the barrels and want them to look like originals- as GT does.

I have a really small dovetail cutter for the sight base. They are really easy to break.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Thanks for sharing! Have you fired it and if so how far out?
dju

I just finished the barrel on Monday. It is already boxed up & ready to ship out; I have a small window of opportunity to get it smoothed out and refinished, I didn't want to miss it. In fact, I am missing three springs and a pin, which I hope Tom Heller has on hand. When it returns, I will post pics of the re-assembly (barrel vise, spanners, etc) and the finished product. I do have 9mm ammunition, but with shooting season upon us the range is only vacant at odd times. I have the stainless OFM Luger set to shoot, just need to get in to the range for an hour or two. Seems to be a lot of work going on as well as the pistol teams practicing and competition.

I'll get to it eventually.

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

The key cutters are fine , if you are not selling the barrels and want them to look like originals- as GT does.

I use a triangular file to round off the sharp edge between the two keyway cuts. I'm more a function guy rather than form. But I do like a 'knobbly' machine vs a pretty one...