Value detractors

[Firebugs]

Hello all,

I've been looking into lugers passively for about 5 years, and then a lot more seriously once I found out what my tax return would be this year

My main focus is in German P08's and Swiss variants. I have a pretty decent grasp on the general things, models, production years, variations in parts and finishes. However, what isn't so easy to nail down is pricing/value. I can follow a few websites like Simpson's Ltd. and others for general trends, but there are enough variables that in some cases tracking down where the price comes from becomes difficult.

So, I'm going to pose a series of questions... The baseline is there are 2 lugers, in identical condition with sequential serial numbers from the same block, year, etc... We'll say at 90-95% condition 1936 or 1937 P08 with blue/straw S/42. What is the value detraction from the following? These don't need to be gospel, and I understand it can vary from person to person-- just looking for guidance here as I'm fairly in the dark.

a) One is all matching, one has a mismatched magazine

b) One is original, one is refinished

c) One is a vet bringback, the other has a new import mark
i) The other has an older import mark and/or british export mark

d) One is matching except the magazine, the other has 1 or 2 small parts either mismatched or un-numbered (that typically are numbered)


Also, what's the correlation between a gun from a place like Simpson's and the going rate on auction sites like Gunbroker? I see a lot of GB auctions with similar or lower prices to Simpson's that have 0 bids. I ask this one because I bid on and won a GB auction this week that ended up ~350-450 cheaper than what I'd estimate the pistol would've ended up on Simpson's. I was very much expecting my bid to be out-done and had a couple on his page (one of which is in the same serial suffix block of the same year) that I was ready to buy so it came as pleasant surprise to win the auction. I'm wondering if I got lucky or?

GB link: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/80166...McQJ-VIOuNFP9A

Sorry or a long-winded loaded question first post!

Appreciate any insight!

[DavidJayUden]

I'll throw out the opening pitch here, but understand that everyone is going to disagree.

A. A matching magazine probably bumps the price up by $400-$600. 2 matching mags, $800-$1000.
B. Refinished is a killer and in many cases puts it into a shooter category, UNLESS the gun is otherwise rare. Minimum $400 hit.
c. Ditto the import mark. Some are hideous while others are pretty sneaky, so again again several hundred dollars on a marked gun. The British mark thing is another question entirely. some feel it just shows a "history" while others see all those stamps less generously. Also depends on the regional marketplace.
D. The matching gun with a mismatched mag. is considerably more desirable than one with some mismatched internals. Don't ask me why, that's just how it seems to be.
Again these are my assessments. I'm not an advanced collector like these other guys, I just watch the market and that is what I'm basing my responses on.
dju
PS: If I failed to answer any specific questions, please let me know.

[DonVoigt]

nrebugs,
welcome from the shadow into the light!

No way to answer your question; but lots of folks will offer "opinion". (No offense to DJU, he is braver than I.)

Too many variables(and you didn't even mention bore condition), and there is(are) usually more than one issue- so the "either or" is not a valid question; then add in that different "things" are worth more or less to the individual- and you quickly reach the conclusion that one cannot explain pricing- especially what a luger sells for at auction. JMHO!

You have pretty much answered the second part of your question with your own first purchase.
Obviously the mismatched mag was not an issue for you, nor was a questionable bore- and you bought the pistol at a reasonable price.

The "big" retailers ask pretty high prices, how high- maybe 30 to 100% more than you can buy a similar pistol for if you take your time and do your home work.

But occasionally they screw up and you can snatch a bargain, but you must be quick! Or an auction doesn't garner bids for whatever reason.

Dozens or hundreds of fellow collectors are scouring the sources for good, cheap, or sleeper luger; got to be "on your toes" .

[Firebugs]

Thanks for the replies! That's kind of what I figured and that's why I asked it as a hypothetical with two theoretically identical pistols to try to isolate the issues. I can see how the dollar values would differ from person to person substantially. I've seen how gets to be very tricky with some pistols and having several different things between them. In particular I was trying to weigh out an import marked all-matching (including magazine) G-date pistol @ ~80% vs. something like what I ended up bidding on. 1936-1938 w/mismatched magazine in better overall shape.

I can understand why the magazine not matching is less of a problem for people than other small parts. Their function is fairly universal and I would almost go so far to say that numbering them was on the OCD side. It seems fairly common across the board with Lugers, P38s, K43's... to have a mismatched magazine. I look at it similarly to how you very often find K98's that have had complete bolts swapped by armorers (rifle matching except bolt, bolt matches itself). It happens and seems to have been fairly common practice. Obviously they won't command the same price, but in my eyes they are just as 'original'.

The bore on the one I bought... I don't think will get any better honestly. I know the seller mentioned it in the ad that it might clean up, but from what I've seen in other older firearms, it probably got put away for a long time after shooting corrosive ammo and developed some pitting/rust. For older guns bore condition is less of an issue for me, though I do avoid sewer pipes. I intend to occasionally shoot this one so I didn't want anything too nice! I'm finishing college this spring so I definitely intend to expand the collection in the coming years. I especially like the long barrel Navy & artillery lugers, and obviously need a Swiss pistol or two to go with the K31 (they really took good care of their stuff) and Wild rangefinder. The justifications never end

[lugerholsterrepair]

Know what your looking at so when you see a bargain..you can jump on it. Knowledge is money in the bank. This little "hobby" will make a college course in physics or algebra seem easy. Cause making a mistake can really cost you. Study any chance you get. Buy a few books. Search on the forums for topics that interest you. Vast knowledge here.

[gunbugs]

Originally Posted by Firebugs

I look at it similarly to how you very often find K98's that have had complete bolts swapped by armorers (rifle matching except bolt, bolt matches itself). It happens and seems to have been fairly common practice. Obviously they won't command the same price, but in my eyes they are just as 'original'.

The bolts on '98s are mismatched because the rifles were thrown into large piles upon surrender/capture, and the bolts were usually removed and thrown into a different pile. A GI that wanted a '98 would grab a rifle and grab a bolt, not knowing or caring that they weren't numbered to each other. U.S. GI's were trained on our stuff, that wasn't numbered and was dimensionally interchangeable. Same with Lugers and magazines.

[Edward Tinker]

Again, as said above - comparing the ones you compare, they are totally different -

I HAVE found that import marked guns seem to have taken on an almost accepted status compared to say 10 yrs ago. I think its because of the Sturgess collection that came in with hundreds (many hundreds) of import marked lugers and literally over a thousand guns, and the import marking by Simpson was small on the butt of the gun (now moved to near the trigger-guard).

To most collectors, an import marking, mismatched (not counting mag, that is considered expected) or even a professional refinished gun are deal killers. They just are.
I have owned all of the above, but given a choice in the below, I would still take a 80% gun compared to any of the below.

Refinished - its lost its history, would take a 80% matching (not mag)
Mismatched - depends on what is mismatched, firing pin or grips would not put it into a 'shooter category to me
- but lets say the takedown or sideplate is mismatched, I would take a 80% gun over it.
Import marked gun - I would take an 80% over it

HOWEVER, as said above, for a rare model, I would take any of the above, but consider it a placeholder until I got a better one.
.
.
PS: I have bought several mismatched guns, hoping to find a part (sideplate or takedown lever) - it is very hard to do, you'd think it isn't, but it is.

[Firebugs]

Originally Posted by gunbugs

The bolts on '98s are mismatched because the rifles were thrown into large piles upon surrender/capture, and the bolts were usually removed and thrown into a different pile. A GI that wanted a '98 would grab a rifle and grab a bolt, not knowing or caring that they weren't numbered to each other. U.S. GI's were trained on our stuff, that wasn't numbered and was dimensionally interchangeable. Same with Lugers and magazines.

I've heard various reason for why this happened from (German) unit armorers at the field level because of failed/worn parts (or whatever else), from GI's being told to toss all of the bolts in a barrel for the ship ride home, then grabbing them at home port, post-war imports without bolts to avoid taxes/tarrifs, and the reason you mentioned. I tend to think it's some combination of all of them, though I don't know how much of each to attribute it all to. There seems to be evidence for all of them.

If German pistol marksmanship training was anything like my USMC pistol training, it's no wonder. It was commonplace for us to load a stack of every magazine we had on the ammo table before conducting training, then just grab 3 magazines when we're done. The original Beretta mags were mixed in with aftermarket and I think I was the only one in my unit that noticed the difference and/or cared.

[Major Tom]

At Simpsons, guns that are consignment, the owner will add the 20% that Simpsons charge as their selling fee. I did just that for 2 handguns they sold for me. They do a real good job with photography tho.