Portugese GNR

Jim W · 09-18-2002, 04:10 PM

I need some help to determine what might be legitimate on a 1935/06 GNR Banner. Were these all new production or reworks of 1906 models? Should magazine be aluminum base or wood, with or without markings? Would there ever be a legitimate case for the extractor to be marked in German and not Portugese? Should the grip safety be numbered as on 06 commercials, or unmarked? Should grip panels be numbered or unmarked? Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

Ron Wood · 09-18-2002, 05:28 PM

The 1935/06 GNR was new production, I have read nothing that indicates otherwise. The magazine base is aluminum and unmarked. Extractor should be marked in Portuguese, if not, it has been replaced. With respect to your last two questions, my GNR grip safety and grips are not numbered. I do not have any documentation to indicate whether this is correct or not. One of the grips and the underside of the grip safety is marked with a capital letter "O".

Jim W · 09-18-2002, 08:47 PM

Ron: thank you for the quick response. I find that my GNR is consistent with yours, but the one I am evaluating is the one that raised the questions. I especially appreciate that your response is based an example in hand.
Regards, Jim W.

ken d · 09-18-2002, 09:58 PM

Jim
I concur with Ron on the GNR. Mine also has a polished mag w/alum bottom-no markings. No markings on grips--didnt disassemble to look at back of grip safety for markings.

Ken D

Lugerdoc · 09-19-2002, 10:03 AM

Also important, if a true GNR the serial number should be in the 1921v to 2484v range. Tom H.

Jim W · 09-19-2002, 12:20 PM

Ron: I decided to give a more precise concurrence to you on the grips and grip safety of my GNR. The grips are un-numbered and the back of the grip safety has a SWISS CROSS!! None of my swiss guns have this proof in this position. Costanzo (#18) does not list the grip safety as a location for this (parts) proof. Maybe belongs in a swiss banner of the same era??? Any ideas?? Yes Tom, both my GNR and the one I am evaluating are in the correct serial range. The GNR under evaluation has two digit matching #'s on gdrip panels, and mis-match two digit # on face of grip safety, no marking on reverse.

So... I think the GNR with the Geladin marked extractor and the numbered grip safety have had at least two parts replaced. Any ideas on value of such a mongrel??

Thanks!!

Ron Wood · 09-19-2002, 01:06 PM

Jim,
Isn't it interesting what you discover when you look close! I haven't heard of a Swiss proofed grip safety, but I haven't looked under all of mine, so maybe I should do so. Since the GNR and the Swiss Commercial were produced in roughly the same time period, it is entirely possible there was some "cross pollination" of parts. It is also interesting to note that although the serial number range of the GNR is well documented, Still indicates that 2499v has been reported. That is one of the enigmas of this hobby.. the more you learn the more you realize how little you know.

As to the value of the GNR you are looking at, even though it has had some parts replaced, it is still a scarce gun. Perhaps a 15%-20% reduction from the value of a matched gun in equal condition? It is hard to put a gauge on situations like this. I guess it still boils down to a fair price is what the buyer is willing to spend and the seller is willing to take.

Jim W · 09-19-2002, 02:57 PM

Thanks for your comments Ron. I agree that the more you learn the less you know, more or less... I neglected to mention that the condition of the GNR under consideration is a complete rig, cleaning rod is commercial I suspect (brass rod, whereas I think the Portugese got steel rods, blued or not...)punch and unmarked tool, holster correct and in pretty good unaltered condition, pistol has good blue appearance with no heavy wear, but is thin to about 85% or so, bright bore but worn, unmarked wood base mag.

Ron Wood · 09-19-2002, 05:25 PM

Jim,
My GNR is a full rig also, with unmarked tool, pin punch and the cleaning rod/oiler has a brass rod. I have been told, but cannot document, that all the accessories for the GNR were commercial, therefore the brass rod would be correct. Perhaps someone else on the forum can confirm one way or the other?

Jim W · 09-19-2002, 08:07 PM

Ron: My basis for ASSUMING that the shaft would be steel is that that is what my "more correct" GNR rig has, coupled with a dutch colonies proofed rod that I have which has blued shaft. Not a very good reason, is it!?

I will try in the future to be more careful with the assumptions!!

Jim

Ron Wood · 09-19-2002, 08:09 PM

Hey, your reason is just as good as mine! Maybe even better. <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Lugerdoc · 09-23-2002, 01:33 PM

Jim & Ron, IMHO the standard brass DWM commerical oiler type cleaning rod is correct for the M1906 Portugese contract and many may have been used later by the GNR, but the most correct for the GNR is the steel shaft oiler type with course knurling on cap which is usually Portugese marked (kk/10 or such in a circle). Tom

09-18-2002, 05:28 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	The 1935/06 GNR was new production, I have read nothing that indicates otherwise. The magazine base is aluminum and unmarked. Extractor should be marked in Portuguese, if not, it has been replaced. With respect to your last two questions, my GNR grip safety and grips are not numbered. I do not have any documentation to indicate whether this is correct or not. One of the grips and the underside of the grip safety is marked with a capital letter "O". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-19-2002, 10:03 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Also important, if a true GNR the serial number should be in the 1921v to 2484v range. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

09-19-2002, 01:06 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Jim, Isn't it interesting what you discover when you look close! I haven't heard of a Swiss proofed grip safety, but I haven't looked under all of mine, so maybe I should do so. Since the GNR and the Swiss Commercial were produced in roughly the same time period, it is entirely possible there was some "cross pollination" of parts. It is also interesting to note that although the serial number range of the GNR is well documented, Still indicates that 2499v has been reported. That is one of the enigmas of this hobby.. the more you learn the more you realize how little you know. As to the value of the GNR you are looking at, even though it has had some parts replaced, it is still a scarce gun. Perhaps a 15%-20% reduction from the value of a matched gun in equal condition? It is hard to put a gauge on situations like this. I guess it still boils down to a fair price is what the buyer is willing to spend and the seller is willing to take. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-19-2002, 05:25 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Jim, My GNR is a full rig also, with unmarked tool, pin punch and the cleaning rod/oiler has a brass rod. I have been told, but cannot document, that all the accessories for the GNR were commercial, therefore the brass rod would be correct. Perhaps someone else on the forum can confirm one way or the other? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-19-2002, 08:09 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Hey, your reason is just as good as mine! Maybe even better. <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-18-2002, 04:10 PM	#1
Jim W User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Portugese GNR I need some help to determine what might be legitimate on a 1935/06 GNR Banner. Were these all new production or reworks of 1906 models? Should magazine be aluminum base or wood, with or without markings? Would there ever be a legitimate case for the extractor to be marked in German and not Portugese? Should the grip safety be numbered as on 06 commercials, or unmarked? Should grip panels be numbered or unmarked? Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

09-18-2002, 08:47 PM	#3
Jim W User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron: thank you for the quick response. I find that my GNR is consistent with yours, but the one I am evaluating is the one that raised the questions. I especially appreciate that your response is based an example in hand. Regards, Jim W.

09-18-2002, 09:58 PM	#4
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Jim I concur with Ron on the GNR. Mine also has a polished mag w/alum bottom-no markings. No markings on grips--didnt disassemble to look at back of grip safety for markings. Ken D

09-19-2002, 12:20 PM	#6
Jim W User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron: I decided to give a more precise concurrence to you on the grips and grip safety of my GNR. The grips are un-numbered and the back of the grip safety has a SWISS CROSS!! None of my swiss guns have this proof in this position. Costanzo (#18) does not list the grip safety as a location for this (parts) proof. Maybe belongs in a swiss banner of the same era??? Any ideas?? Yes Tom, both my GNR and the one I am evaluating are in the correct serial range. The GNR under evaluation has two digit matching #'s on gdrip panels, and mis-match two digit # on face of grip safety, no marking on reverse. So... I think the GNR with the Geladin marked extractor and the numbered grip safety have had at least two parts replaced. Any ideas on value of such a mongrel?? Thanks!!

09-19-2002, 02:57 PM	#8
Jim W User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for your comments Ron. I agree that the more you learn the less you know, more or less... I neglected to mention that the condition of the GNR under consideration is a complete rig, cleaning rod is commercial I suspect (brass rod, whereas I think the Portugese got steel rods, blued or not...)punch and unmarked tool, holster correct and in pretty good unaltered condition, pistol has good blue appearance with no heavy wear, but is thin to about 85% or so, bright bore but worn, unmarked wood base mag.

09-19-2002, 08:07 PM	#10
Jim W User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron: My basis for ASSUMING that the shaft would be steel is that that is what my "more correct" GNR rig has, coupled with a dutch colonies proofed rod that I have which has blued shaft. Not a very good reason, is it!? I will try in the future to be more careful with the assumptions!! Jim

09-23-2002, 01:33 PM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Jim & Ron, IMHO the standard brass DWM commerical oiler type cleaning rod is correct for the M1906 Portugese contract and many may have been used later by the GNR, but the most correct for the GNR is the steel shaft oiler type with course knurling on cap which is usually Portugese marked (kk/10 or such in a circle). Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]