California/Maryland/Massachusetts compliant?

[Logan7]

Am a newbie interested in Lugers, and I see that my local metropolitan police department will only permit us to register handguns that are found on any one of the 'approved' lists for these three states: California, Maryland, or Massachusetts. Unfortunately, I don't see any Lugers listed.

Aren't there Luger collectors in those three states? .. And, how did they register their guns?

> Perhaps they did so before these states ever came out with 'approved' lists. Or, are there separate state lists for collectibles?

Just thought to ask the pro's here. Otherwise, looks like I'm out of luck.

Thanks for any reply / further information.

[Edward Tinker]

which state are you from?

I am sure there are collectors from that state here.

A lot of collectors have C&R (FFL 03) to help in some of these matter.

WELCOME to the forum!!

Ed

[Logan7]

Ed, thanks for the reply but alas I live in the District of Columbia. The good news is we're the folks who brought you the Heller ruling, the bad news is the D.C. City Council is taking it out on us. Severe restrictions - like the one I stated above: no handguns but those listed in those three states.

Getting a gun shipped in legally isn't any problem for me, as I have a C&R and it's fine to do so. But then afterward, getting the gun registered at the Metropolitan Police HQ - is.

So, I wonder if there's something I'm missing.

If any Luger collectors from California, Maryland, or Massachusetts have any helpful info, I'd be grateful. Have my eye on a pre-war DWM. Shame to let some liberal bureaucrats kill all the joy.

[tharpo]

C&R handguns are legal in California so Lugers don't need to be on an approved list.

[Logan7]

Excellent. And logical.

I'll check to see if that logic holds here, as well.

Thank you.

[Bill_in_VA]

Why not rent a safe deposit box across the river in Virginia? Store the gun in the safe deposit box and legally avoid registration.

[kkiley]

Same in Maryland C&R handguns are ok

[mrerick]

You need to look up the statutes that have been passed and apply to the jurisdiction where you live.

Sometimes the overview summaries can be useful, but you need to get the actual statutes. First, here's an overview:

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/res...p/dc-gun-laws/

THIS LINK will get you to the actual DC statutes.

THIS LINK will get you to a list of what can be registered.

Then THIS SECTION goes on to refer to registration of ONLY those pistols that are on the California roster. That is an odd way of delegating sovereignty from the District to a state (likely the most restrictive in the nation, obviously).

Section E 1 of this statute says that the prohibition does NOT apply to Curios and Relics.

"(e) This section shall not apply to:
(1) Firearms defined as curios or relics, as defined in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11;"

The section it refers to is a Federal statute. The Code of Federal Regulations. This is the law that authorizes the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. (ATF).

It defines the "meaning of terms" in the regulations. See THIS LINK.

Under "Curio and Relic" is defined as:

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.


Wartime Luger pistols ARE curios and relics based simply on age alone. But, sections (b) and (c) allow for the ATF to designate curio and relic firearms as well.

The ATF does this all the time, and publishes a list of what they have approved. They also issue ruling letters for individuals that want to have a firearm designated C&R.

The comprehensive list through 2007 is at: https://www.atf.gov/file/2026/download

The most current (2018) list update is at: https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download


An overview of the C&R rules and list links are at: http://https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

On this list, you will also find all the Lugers manufactured by the 1970's Mauser company.

The regulations don't appear to require Lugers to be transferred in Washington DC under C&R FFL Licenses, just transferred through a FFL in the District. If you had a C&R FFL you could accept the transfer, but would still be subject to the rest of their regulations.

Note that the ATF rules for a C&R collector licensee require you to follow all local laws. So, for you to take possession of the Luger as a C&R licensee, you must first get the registration certificate from your Chief of Police. In effect, you must register it before you accept the package containing it.

Your local Class 01 business FFL or the police office that registers guns should be able to confirm all this.

If you think this is intentionally complex and byzantine you are absolutely right. See.... buying a gun is as easy as ordering it on the Internet.

I work on helping update North Carolina statutes as a director with Grass Roots North Carolina GRNC, so I'm used to wading through statutes like this. You can see how difficult it is to answer a simple question. Many citizens give up instead of pursuing their rights to collect Lugers and such.

For your further entertainment: Jabberwocky

[mrerick]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

Why not rent a safe deposit box across the river in Virginia? Store the gun in the safe deposit box and legally avoid registration.

Bill, if I remember correctly, under Federal law it's illegal to buy a handgun and have it transferred to you through an FFL in a state where you don't live.

If he lives in Washington DC, he can only accept transfer by a Washington DC FFL.

He is required by District law to register any handgun he has in the District. The FFL cannot transfer it to him until he has the registration certificate and presents it to the FFL at time of pickup.

Since he is a C&R FFL, it may be possible for him to accept the firearm outside the state where he lives, but that action would be so layered in multiple laws that interpreting that is above my pay grade. If he was permitted to accept it when he was out of state, he would have to follow the laws in that state as well as his own. Most states prohibit pistol transfers to out of state residents.

[mrerick]

Originally Posted by tharpo

C&R handguns are legal in California so Lugers don't need to be on an approved list.

California law does not apply to the jurisdiction of Washington DC.

In fact, the statutes in DC DO exempt Lugers because they are C&R, and for other guns, the District refers to the California list to determine if they are "safe". This, of course, severely restricts firearms that can be sold, and the size of magazines.

[Logan7]

Mrerick - thank you for taking this time to share your expertise and make those key clarifications. I have just set out to review those DC links and the CFR.

This should work. This could happen - if the District will just follow the printed rules and clear intent.

At times they do, and at others they simply do not - by adding costly and complex regulations, with dire penalties for non-compliance. I've never had so many hurdles between me and this basic civil right than here, in the nation's capital.

Let me mention that I have one of the very hard to get carry permits issued in the District. That was another civil right recently forced upon the City Council through the Courts, but they have set up the toughest and most expensive licensing scheme in the nation by way of payback.

Residents here cannot obtain a CCP inside the District! We must all travel 'out of state' and pay $$$ to arrange for two consecutive days of private instruction from someone on their approved list of trainers. The cost of that, plus the actual license fee, plus their $125 FFL transfer fee, plus their fingerprinting fee ..was more than my carry pistol cost me. About 5 bills.

Average folks who live here [am not talking about Congressional staffers, federal bureaucrats, and K-street lobbyists] cannot afford legal and practical, armed self-defense - whatever the Courts say. It's been pushed well up and mostly out of their reach by their own anti-gun City Council. It's a shame.

"For your further entertainment..." Thanks also, Mrerick. 'Twas brillig.

[mrerick]

One of the most potent ways to handle bureaucrats is to be in possession of the facts.

I've had the pleasure to know Alan Gura, the lawyer that litigated both the Heller and MacDonald cases in front of the Supreme Court. Know that he is still working to advance our rights.

This is not a politically oriented forum, but rather dedicated to the Luger pistol. For that reason, I don't discuss these things here.

Just know that when you show up at the offices you need to work with to process things, in possession of the facts and without emotion, it's much more effective and intimidating to the bureaucrats. I hope I've helped arm you with the information you need.

[Logan7]

Many thanks, again. Your knowledge and generosity have made a real difference for me.

"This is not a politically oriented forum..." - No, and I see that.

However, if there ever were an 'RKBA' or a '2nd Amendment' discussion area here, I don't have to imagine the level of intelligent exchange that would flow through it.

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Just know that when you show up at the offices you need to work with to process things, in possession of the facts and without emotion, it's much more effective and intimidating to the bureaucrats. I hope I've helped arm you with the information you need.

Very true. Years ago local police officers in a municipality here in Colorado were confiscating certain types of firearms during traffic stops. The police were going beyond and mis-interpreting the law. Local firearms rights activists requested a meeting with representatives from the offices of the mayor, DA, and police, and explained the law. Their presentation was polite, patient and expert. The policy was changed and the unlawful confiscations stopped.

[Bill_in_VA]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Bill, if I remember correctly, under Federal law it's illegal to buy a handgun and have it transferred to you through an FFL in a state where you don't live.

If he lives in Washington DC, he can only accept transfer by a Washington DC FFL.

He is required by District law to register any handgun he has in the District. The FFL cannot transfer it to him until he has the registration certificate and presents it to the FFL at time of pickup.

Since he is a C&R FFL, it may be possible for him to accept the firearm outside the state where he lives, but that action would be so layered in multiple laws that interpreting that is above my pay grade. If he was permitted to accept it when he was out of state, he would have to follow the laws in that state as well as his own. Most states prohibit pistol transfers to out of state residents.

It is true that an individual can only take delivery of an out-of-state handgun via an in-state FFL (or in-District as the case may be.) I can’t speak to whether or not Washington DC considers a C&R FFL adequate to receive a handgun from out of state; clearly some of the liberal states do not. However, once he has it in his possession nothing prevents him from carrying the handgun to another state (provided possession in that state is legal - Virginia is.) At that point, no law prohibits him from storing the gun in a safe deposit box.

[mrerick]

True....

Also note that the way a C&R FFL is defined, you must also comply with all state and local laws for the place you reside and operate (collect) under your license. This is why states may have more restrictive procedures that you must still comply with as a C&R license holder.

This allows for processes like registration to still be enforced for C&R licensees in places like New York.

In most Federal law, you find these places where the regulations defer to the higher power of the individual state. It's relatively rare to see Federal law completely trump state law. More often, they use financial incentives and other "levers" to gain compliance with national policies.

Be ever thankful for the constitution and judges that respect it.

[Bill_in_VA]

Marc, if the District requires all guns stored inside the District by District residents to be registered, but the gun isn’t stored in the District they have no sway. If, however, the District requires District residents who own guns that’s another. IIRC, they require registration of the firearm, not the person.