Ralph Shattuck

hayhugh · 09-12-2020, 06:25 PM

I have been a member of this forum for a number of year and have a growing and rather diverse collection of Lugers The name Ralph Shattuck keeps coming up in almost any type of discussion on Lugers and not always in a good light. What is the true story of the man? Thank you, Hugh

Edward Tinker · 09-12-2020, 06:53 PM

That is a hard and simple question

Ralph was a very nice man - he also was a car salesman (no offense) - he could and did sell most anything, and many people feel that Ralph sold a lot of fakes. I have friends who have bought from him years ago - people in general like PRETTY guns.

He always treated me good - he also showed up at a show and dealers had 'deals' with him and brought him 12-20 guns (the few times I saw) and he'd bring stuff from Arizona.

Pictures of his show room - the ones on the walls were what you saw of his 'personal' collection and those on the floor were the ones appraised by Legacy Collectibles (I was in Saudi Arabia, so could not go help)

Ed

Doubs · 09-12-2020, 07:33 PM

My first transaction with Ralph left me somewhat wary of him. The "all matching" Erfurt Luger had a renumbered locking bolt and side plate plus areas touched up with cold blue. The two parts mentioned had numbers engraved - not stamped - on them and engraved crowns as well. They were clearly not factory. See the picture below.

IMO he thought I was new to Lugers after talking to me on the phone. When called on it, he immediately offered to take the Luger back. It was unit marked so I decided to keep it which turned out to be a good decision. I later bought a true all matching Erfurt Artillery Luger issued to the same regiment.

A couple of later purchases went smoothly and the guns were exactly as he said they would be.

calibrator · 09-13-2020, 11:17 AM

I typed a rather detailed account of my experiences, tales my Marilyn-esque GF and I were told during our visits (I live nearby).

Too bad I timed-out while typing, and lost the effort trying to re-log-in. There were several aspects of his life he shared that I doubt few know of.

I found him to be a personable man with people socially.

I have a fondness for Pirates (NOT the Somali-type), ... that's the word I would use.

Lugerdoc · 09-13-2020, 12:11 PM

I learned early-on in my "luger education" from "Uncle Ralph" that if his listing did not say "original" blue, that "minty blue" was his way of saying "Reblued". One learned to read between the lines of his annual sales listing, but if you were unpleased for any reason, you could return for a full refund. I learned a lot, not only about lugers, but in dealing mail order (pre-internet) on buying collectables. One has to also admire his efforts with Sam Costanzo in publishing research thru "World of Lugers". So as a member of the luger collecting fraternity, I consider Mr. Shattuck & Costanzo, Harry Jones, Charles Kenyon, Randall Gibson, Jan Still, et al early publishers of luger research, as the foundation of our hobby. TH

aldo35 · 09-13-2020, 12:28 PM

Beautiful pictures. What has happened to this wonderful collection?

schutzen-jager · 09-13-2020, 02:36 PM

JMHO - car salesman stereo type seller - might not have lied , but avoided telling the truth -

Edward Tinker · 09-13-2020, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aldo35

Beautiful pictures. What has happened to this wonderful collection?

His 'stock' of guns were bought by a large auction company and sold over a year or so - his personal collection was then sold by his family (son/daughter) over a couple of rock island auctions.

I bought his 1926 Simson, which had never been reblued or restored, which was nice - some pieces he had were so new looking that it made you wonder. But I had looked at this one in person and then later pictures from him / the auction.

Norme · 09-13-2020, 03:32 PM

When I was young and innocent I bought my first Navy Luger from Shattuck. It took me a while to realize that it was not what it seemed. It had a genuine and rare M.A. marked bottom half with a fake top half. I sold it a while ago, with full disclosure, and it's listed as a fake on the Navy List. This gun was the reason I started the Navy List project, to expose the fakes and the evil doers who create them.
Norm
P.S. I blush when I look at these photos, how could I have been so stupid?

spacecoast · 09-13-2020, 05:42 PM

As noted by Pete E. on the other forum a few years ago, Shattuck often used a sticker on the right side frame ear recess to record an inventory number. Often these stickers stayed on for years and removing them left a circular shadow that is/was almost impossible to remove. If you see one of these, it's likely a Shattuck gun (there are hundreds of guns so marked).

lugerholsterrepair · 09-13-2020, 05:44 PM

how could I have been so stupid? Same way I was. When I was young and innocent. Shattuck was a Luger young and innocent predator. He looked for the young and innocent beginners. Guys like him are why young and innocent beginners should BUY BOOKS. Then STUDY them.

Generally I wouldn't mention this but Shattuck is the only dealer (yet) who reached into this young and innocent collectors pocket and stole his hard earned after tax money. Then when I found out his chicanery and attempted to return his fake..he told me "This isn't Walmart! " Smarmy smooth snake with money as his God.

hayhugh · 09-13-2020, 07:58 PM

Quote:

When I was young and innocent I bought my first Navy Luger from Shattuck. It took me a while to realize that it was not what it seemed. It had a genuine and rare M.A. marked bottom half with a fake top half. I sold it a while ago, with full disclosure, and it's listed as a fake on the Navy List. This gun was the reason I started the Navy List project, to expose the fakes and the evil doers who create them.
Norm

Gee Norm you must have taken quite a loss when you unloaded that gun - must have been reduced to "shooter" status ......

Norme · 09-13-2020, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayhugh

Gee Norm you must have taken quite a loss when you unloaded that gun - must have been reduced to "shooter" status ......

Yes, I did take a loss, but it was well worth the lesson learned. I determined that that would never happen to me again. I "hit the books", all of them! I also went through all the Imperial Navy posts in the archives of both this and Jan Stills' forum, taking notes along the way. It took an hour an evening for several weeks but at the end I felt confident that I could more than hold my own with any seller. All in all I have no regrets.
Norm

hayhugh · 09-14-2020, 06:31 AM

I placed an ad in Luger Forum back in Mar of 2015:

I would like to buy a pre 20's navy luger in the $2500.00 range (+/- a couple of hundred) I do not want a collector grade, just a good honest gun! , Thank you, Hugh

Hi Hugh, I have three or four guns you can choose from, let me have your email and I'll send you descriptions and photos.
Regards Norm
[email protected]

The gun I payed $2400.00 for is now listed with following info: Replaced barrel, refinished receiver, renumbered toggle train and takedown lever

, You certainly did not divulge this information to me at that time.

Norme · 09-14-2020, 08:44 AM

"You certainly did not divulge this information to me at that time."

Are you sure Hugh? Would you mind reminding me of the details of our transaction, serial number and price paid including shipping?
Norm

hayhugh · 09-14-2020, 09:19 AM

As I stated in my ad I wanted a good honest gun. My C&R log states on 9 Mar 15 I payed $2400.00 for DWM Navy Luger S# 4078a from Norman Rabinowicz.

Norme · 09-14-2020, 01:16 PM

For your information Hugh, I paid $3,700 for 1906 Navy 1st Alt #4078a from Ralph Shattuck back in Jan 2004. I most certainly did not hide it's shortcomings from you, in fact they are listed in full on the Navy List!
Norm

hayhugh · 09-14-2020, 02:35 PM

Well Norm at the time of purchase I had no idea what a Navy list was. Today it is nothing but a mixed parts gun, a shooter and what's that worth?

Yakman · 09-14-2020, 04:14 PM

Since this dispute is openly presented and responded to in the open Forum, as a member I feel it ok if I offer my two cents worth.

My response has relevance to the "Ralph Shattuck" thread, as a detractor has ironically been accused of the same thing for which he has accused Shattuck.

hayhugh's argument is strong.

Were I in this situation, to preserve my good name and my reputation, and most importantly the reputation and integrity of this Forum, as well as the trust members have when buying from another member, I would ask for the gun to be returned for a full refund plus the shipping. I would not argue the point. I would make the offer, but would not apologize for something for which I felt I was correct. I would not try to have the last word protesting my innocence.

Jack

Norme · 09-14-2020, 04:28 PM

Well Jack, I have another suggestion. If Hugh were to list the gun on Gunbroker as a "Navy Luger Shooter" at a $1.00 starting price I'll pay him the difference if it doesn't net $2,400.00 (his cost price). If it goes over, he gets to keep the difference. It cuts down on shipping and who knows, he may make a profit?
Norm

09-12-2020, 06:25 PM	#1
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 857 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	Ralph Shattuck I have been a member of this forum for a number of year and have a growing and rather diverse collection of Lugers The name Ralph Shattuck keeps coming up in almost any type of discussion on Lugers and not always in a good light. What is the true story of the man? Thank you, Hugh

09-12-2020, 06:53 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	That is a hard and simple question Ralph was a very nice man - he also was a car salesman (no offense) - he could and did sell most anything, and many people feel that Ralph sold a lot of fakes. I have friends who have bought from him years ago - people in general like PRETTY guns. He always treated me good - he also showed up at a show and dealers had 'deals' with him and brought him 12-20 guns (the few times I saw) and he'd bring stuff from Arizona. Pictures of his show room - the ones on the walls were what you saw of his 'personal' collection and those on the floor were the ones appraised by Legacy Collectibles (I was in Saudi Arabia, so could not go help) Ed Attached Thumbnails __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-13-2020, 12:11 PM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I learned early-on in my "luger education" from "Uncle Ralph" that if his listing did not say "original" blue, that "minty blue" was his way of saying "Reblued". One learned to read between the lines of his annual sales listing, but if you were unpleased for any reason, you could return for a full refund. I learned a lot, not only about lugers, but in dealing mail order (pre-internet) on buying collectables. One has to also admire his efforts with Sam Costanzo in publishing research thru "World of Lugers". So as a member of the luger collecting fraternity, I consider Mr. Shattuck & Costanzo, Harry Jones, Charles Kenyon, Randall Gibson, Jan Still, et al early publishers of luger research, as the foundation of our hobby. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

09-13-2020, 12:28 PM	#6
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 343 Thanks: 2,229 Thanked 146 Times in 76 Posts	Ralph Shattuck Beautiful pictures. What has happened to this wonderful collection?

09-13-2020, 03:32 PM	#9
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	When I was young and innocent I bought my first Navy Luger from Shattuck. It took me a while to realize that it was not what it seemed. It had a genuine and rare M.A. marked bottom half with a fake top half. I sold it a while ago, with full disclosure, and it's listed as a fake on the Navy List. This gun was the reason I started the Navy List project, to expose the fakes and the evil doers who create them. Norm P.S. I blush when I look at these photos, how could I have been so stupid? Attached Thumbnails

09-12-2020, 07:33 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	My first transaction with Ralph left me somewhat wary of him. The "all matching" Erfurt Luger had a renumbered locking bolt and side plate plus areas touched up with cold blue. The two parts mentioned had numbers engraved - not stamped - on them and engraved crowns as well. They were clearly not factory. See the picture below. IMO he thought I was new to Lugers after talking to me on the phone. When called on it, he immediately offered to take the Luger back. It was unit marked so I decided to keep it which turned out to be a good decision. I later bought a true all matching Erfurt Artillery Luger issued to the same regiment. A couple of later purchases went smoothly and the guns were exactly as he said they would be.

09-13-2020, 11:17 AM	#4
calibrator User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cave Creek Posts: 315 Thanks: 55 Thanked 242 Times in 92 Posts	I typed a rather detailed account of my experiences, tales my Marilyn-esque GF and I were told during our visits (I live nearby). Too bad I timed-out while typing, and lost the effort trying to re-log-in. There were several aspects of his life he shared that I doubt few know of. I found him to be a personable man with people socially. I have a fondness for Pirates (NOT the Somali-type), ... that's the word I would use.

09-13-2020, 02:36 PM	#7
schutzen-jager User Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: peoples republic of New Jersey Posts: 187 Thanks: 208 Thanked 187 Times in 86 Posts	JMHO - car salesman stereo type seller - might not have lied , but avoided telling the truth -

09-13-2020, 05:42 PM	#10
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	As noted by Pete E. on the other forum a few years ago, Shattuck often used a sticker on the right side frame ear recess to record an inventory number. Often these stickers stayed on for years and removing them left a circular shadow that is/was almost impossible to remove. If you see one of these, it's likely a Shattuck gun (there are hundreds of guns so marked). Attached Images __________________ My avatars are the Bulgarian word for "Fire", as seen on my 1900, 1906 and 1908 Bulgarian Contract DWM Lugers. Looking for a DWM Commercial side plate #95

09-13-2020, 05:44 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	how could I have been so stupid? Same way I was. When I was young and innocent. Shattuck was a Luger young and innocent predator. He looked for the young and innocent beginners. Guys like him are why young and innocent beginners should BUY BOOKS. Then STUDY them. Generally I wouldn't mention this but Shattuck is the only dealer (yet) who reached into this young and innocent collectors pocket and stole his hard earned after tax money. Then when I found out his chicanery and attempted to return his fake..he told me "This isn't Walmart! " Smarmy smooth snake with money as his God. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-14-2020, 06:31 AM	#14
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 857 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	I placed an ad in Luger Forum back in Mar of 2015: I would like to buy a pre 20's navy luger in the $2500.00 range (+/- a couple of hundred) I do not want a collector grade, just a good honest gun! , Thank you, Hugh Hi Hugh, I have three or four guns you can choose from, let me have your email and I'll send you descriptions and photos. Regards Norm [email protected] The gun I payed $2400.00 for is now listed with following info: Replaced barrel, refinished receiver, renumbered toggle train and takedown lever , You certainly did not divulge this information to me at that time. Last edited by hayhugh; 09-14-2020 at 07:51 AM. Reason: More info

09-14-2020, 08:44 AM	#15
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	"You certainly did not divulge this information to me at that time." Are you sure Hugh? Would you mind reminding me of the details of our transaction, serial number and price paid including shipping? Norm

09-14-2020, 09:19 AM	#16
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 857 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	As I stated in my ad I wanted a good honest gun. My C&R log states on 9 Mar 15 I payed $2400.00 for DWM Navy Luger S# 4078a from Norman Rabinowicz.

09-14-2020, 01:16 PM	#17
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	For your information Hugh, I paid $3,700 for 1906 Navy 1st Alt #4078a from Ralph Shattuck back in Jan 2004. I most certainly did not hide it's shortcomings from you, in fact they are listed in full on the Navy List! Norm

09-14-2020, 02:35 PM	#18
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 857 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	Well Norm at the time of purchase I had no idea what a Navy list was. Today it is nothing but a mixed parts gun, a shooter and what's that worth?

09-14-2020, 04:14 PM	#19
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	Since this dispute is openly presented and responded to in the open Forum, as a member I feel it ok if I offer my two cents worth. My response has relevance to the "Ralph Shattuck" thread, as a detractor has ironically been accused of the same thing for which he has accused Shattuck. hayhugh's argument is strong. Were I in this situation, to preserve my good name and my reputation, and most importantly the reputation and integrity of this Forum, as well as the trust members have when buying from another member, I would ask for the gun to be returned for a full refund plus the shipping. I would not argue the point. I would make the offer, but would not apologize for something for which I felt I was correct. I would not try to have the last word protesting my innocence. Jack

09-14-2020, 04:28 PM	#20
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Well Jack, I have another suggestion. If Hugh were to list the gun on Gunbroker as a "Navy Luger Shooter" at a $1.00 starting price I'll pay him the difference if it doesn't net $2,400.00 (his cost price). If it goes over, he gets to keep the difference. It cuts down on shipping and who knows, he may make a profit? Norm