1913 Erfurt Luger

[mikearc99]

I just got my first Luger, an Erfurt Luger. It does not have any date markings on the chamber so based the serial number, it was made in 1913. It does not have any straw parts so I wondering if its a rebuild or something. I am not that into Lugers as I just wanted one to go along with my 1917 Colt 1911.

[gunnertwo]

With no date and no straw coloring, plus the pic of the top of the toggle- it's refinished. Erfurt started in 1910 (about 50 made) and went to 1918. All were dated on the chamber. If it's all matching then IMHO, it's a rework. More pics will tell the tale. BTW, nice 1911 military.

Welcome!

G2

[Doubs]

Welcome to the forum and your Erfurt is a good first Luger.

More detailed pictures are required to tell much about your Erfurt Luger. The fact that the date has been scrubbed and the partly missing letters in "ERFURT" on the toggle strongly suggests that it was reworked after WW1.

Note also that the right "leg" of the crown shows a separation which was caused by a broken die. Only the years 1916, 1917 and 1918 show that fault and then only some of them were stamped with the broken die meaning that others made those years will not show the fault.

In April, 1916, the sear bar was changed to a shorter bar recessed farther from the safety. Many earlier sear bars were modified and yours appears to have been replaced as the number looks to be 16.

In November of 1916, a military directive required that all receivers be notched so that the rear sight of an Artillery barrel seated properly. Erfurt complied although some 1917 receivers escaped the notch and receivers made before the directive in 1916 were not notched. Your receiver does not appear to have the notch. DWM did not comply and only notched those receivers used to make Artillery Lugers.

So, were I inclined to guess at a date for your Erfurt, the best guess would be 1916. If there is a letter suffix under the serial number on the frame, it may give a better indication of a date but it most definitely is not a 1913.

[Karl]

Stock lug makes it unlikely to be 1913.

KFS

[Mark1]

Interesting Luger, thanks for posting the good quality photos.
There is something unusual about the profile of the front sight blade.

Mark

[mikearc99]

here are some more macro photos. I am wondering what year this Luger was made in.

[DonVoigt]

All Erfurt lugers will have a date on top of the chamber, if it has been scrubbed, there is
no way to know for sure.
Doubs has analyzed your pictures and come up with about 1916- which is as good as you can get without the chamber date.

One cannot date a military luger by its serial number.

[Karl]

Still, Central Powers Pistols, Appendix C, lists O O P receiver acceptance stamps for Erfurt in 1916 and 1917.

KFS

[Good-Day]

Thanks for sharing and by the way nice Pics

Congrats on your Luger and hate to say it but this may just be your "first" but not last

I always kind of sit on the side lines and love seeing peoples latest acquisition’s

Hate to say it keeps me wanting another

[mikearc99]

Originally Posted by Doubs

If there is a letter suffix under the serial number on the frame, it may give a better indication of a date.

Like this. I went to the range yesterday and it works although it locked back with one round left in the magazine. And also it is hard to remove the magazine. Will mecgar luger mag work although I heard it was based on a WW2 mag.

[spacecoast]

One cannot date a military luger by its serial number.

Sometimes you can eliminate years with relatively low production. With a "j"-suffixed serial, it's almost certainly a 1917 or 1918 Luger, if it's an Erfurt, which it appears to be.

[rhuff]

The Mec-Gar Luger mag is THE mag of choice of the aftermarket mags. Get yourself 1-2, and use them instead of the older mags.

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by mikearc99

Will mecgar luger mag work although I heard it was based on a WW2 mag.

Yes. One of the interesting things about Lugers is that they all accept the same magazines.

[Kiwi]

9mm or 7.65 (.30 Luger) still the same magazine, so 2-3 Mec Gar's and you have enough for your entire collection

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by spacecoast

Sometimes you can eliminate years with relatively low production. With a "j"-suffixed serial, it's almost certainly a 1917 or 1918 Luger, if it's an Erfurt, which it appears to be.

I'm a bit confused by the suffix letter which is clearly a "j". The Germans used the "i" and "j" interchangeably and SUPPOSEDLY didn't use the "j" as a suffix letter... and yet there one is.

Only two years - 1917 & 1918 - did Erfurt make enough Lugers to have reached the "j" block. Some 1917 receivers did not have the rear sight notch but, AFAIK, all 1918 production did. So, while my earlier educated guess was 1916, the "j" suffix letter has changed my mind and I'd now say 1917.

If any of the more learned members here has a good explanation for the "j" suffix letter that supposedly was never used, I'd really appreciate your thoughts. Honestly, I'm now questioning what I thought to be unquestionable.

[DonVoigt]

I'm not sure what the suffix letter is- but I'm pretty sure it is not a "j".
The Germans just did not use a "j" suffix, there are enough references to that effect
to satisfy me.

I believe it is a "z".

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I'm not sure what the suffix letter is- but I'm pretty sure it is not a "j". The Germans just did not use a "j" suffix, there are enough references to that effect to satisfy me.

I believe it is a "z".

I'm well aware of the conventional wisdom that the Germans didn't use the letter j as a suffix to Luger serial numbers. I've seen the references too. However, in Gortz & Sturgess, pages 610 and 629 at the bottom, "j" suffix use is specifically mentioned so apparently there have been times when it was. G&S aren't exactly clear but on page 629 seem to suggest that the "j" could have been added to reworked Imperial Lugers after the war. The subject pistol has clearly been worked on at some point.

After comparing numerous charts showing German lower case letters, the only one that letter resembles is a "j". No other letter comes close. It may be a forger's attempt to make a "rare" Luger... or it may be genuine. I don't know.

Remember that this is on an Erfurt and at no time did they ever approach the letter "z" suffix block.... not even in 1918, their most prolific year. Besides, a "z" has a horizontal line through the middle.

It would be nice if someone could examine the Luger in question and give an opinion.

[DonVoigt]

I believe that no "j" suffix in military lugers is somewhat more than conventional wisdom.
If you add the jumbled time of post WWI to the mix, there are two "j" suffixes reported in Dwight's commercial data base, along with many "i"s.

These could be true "j"s or reporting errors or use of a "j" stemple instead of "i" when one broke and could not be replaced immediately.

A possible/logical "reason" for no "j" is that I and J are used or were used interchangeably by the Germans in that time, making use of both a record keeping nightmare- when written
in script it is near impossible to tell one lower case letter from the other. JMHO

I'd like to see a picture of a "j" for sure.

As to the Z having a cross, yes a Capital Z, but no on lower case.
I agree Erfurt did not reach Z , so I don't know what the op's mark really is.

It does not follow that it is a "j" as it is not shaped as a j nor does it have a "jot".

Next closest in my mind is a "g".

I will post a picture of lower case German "z"s as soon as I find the reference.

That suffix surely is odd.

[DonVoigt]

Old German script, several renderings.
One rendering does not even have a "J".

One of the lower case "j"s in the second chart "Alphabet chart" is very close to the letter in question;
but then so is one lc "z" in the same chart.

Probably a "j".

[Doubs]

Don, here is a chart of suffix letters. (Google "Luger suffix letters") Seems pretty accurate as it came from the Luger Forum.

http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/suffix.html

The more I consider the question, the more I lean toward the letter being added post-war when the subject pistol was refurbished. It's clearly obvious that it was worked on at some point but no way to know exactly when.

While there's no dot over it, I just can't see that letter being anything other than a "j" as no other letter, even if only partially stamped. resembles it. I've also seen suffix letters "i" without the dot. Just poorly struck of the die was broken.

I suppose we'll never know for certain. It's truly an oddity.