42/1939s....Is this a coincidence?

sschultz · 07-25-2002, 10:46 PM

Just wanted to ask if anyone else has noticed mismatched/unnumbered rear axel pins on the standard military issue 1939 P08. In my case I think I have seen 2 very nice all original 1939s that had either a mismatch, or an unnumbered one(no other parts were mismatched).

Thor also has a beauty with the same issue. So thats 3 in the last, lets say, 4 years that I have noticed. Now is this simply a co-inkey-dink, or did the rear axel pin guy/gal have a bad day/s at the office in 1939? Anyone else ever notice this?

Would love to hear your comments. Thanks -stuart

Stu · 07-26-2002, 11:48 AM

Is it possible that it's just the result of in service repair ?

Frank · 07-26-2002, 04:33 PM

Stu, that would be my guess. Armor specials would provide the correct pin size, but without the number. Most armorers pins were graded to size. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Jimbo · 07-26-2002, 09:41 PM

Hi sshultz,

My 1939 s/42, SN 6394r, is all-matching except for 2 un-numbered parts. Both the extractor and the toggle rear axle are unstamped. No numbers. I bought the gun from Ralph Shattuck in "mint" condition and the bluing on the extractor is very definitely identical to the receiver and toggle. For some reason these parts were never stamped on the original gun. I assumed this error was because this gun is in the transition between s/42 and 42 codes. I figure they were just rushing things and these parts didn't get stamped.

On the other hand, the germans are so teutonically efficient, it is very curious that these parts did not get stamped.

To assist your research -- yes my 1939 has unnumbered parts.

Roadkill · 07-26-2002, 11:01 PM

One of the reasons there are so many 1911s with mismatched receivers & slides is the great rebuilds in the early 40s. Since the referenced guns are 39s and the parts are in wear areas replacement at the company armorer level is a possibilty.

RK

MikeP · 07-27-2002, 02:06 AM

I know of an instance in a far away place in 1969 where a Remington Rand .45 got a Colt slide because it looked cooler. I fired it yesterday-did some trigger work on it a few years ago-nice shooter.

G.T. · 07-27-2002, 05:35 PM

Hi To All! I dug out my Mauser P.08's and.... All three had the rear pins numbered to the gun... a 1937, S/42 & two 1939's, 42... FWIW....till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Marvin · 07-27-2002, 06:52 PM

I checked my 1939 "S/42", "42", & "Police Banner" for stamps and all three have the rear pin numbered to the pistol. I also checked my 1938s, and 1940s and they also had the numbered rear pim.

Marvin

Frank · 07-27-2002, 09:38 PM

I believe that all Mauser built Lugers, started life with a main toggle pin numbered to the pistol. If they were worn, lost, etc., they were replaced with either another numbered pin (not necessarily the correct number) or a Armors unnumbered pin. Other items that were prone to damage were the grips, firing pin, extractor and ejector. All except the ejector were originally numbered to the pistol. I'm not positive about late byf42 grips, early ones were numbered. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Jimbo · 07-28-2002, 05:13 AM

I'm going to have to have someone experienced look over my 1939 s/42. The extractor is not stamped but the bluing looks identical to the rest of the gun. It would be hard for me to believe the extractor was blued separately from the rest of the gun.

Being a newbie, I can't yet determine from Ted's "look at it in the bright light of day" test that the bluing was original. As I bought the gun from Ralph in "mint original" condition, I assume the blueing is original. If the gun was re-worked and re-blued, I would expect the extractor to have the "s42" replacement stamp, which is not the case. Neither the extractor nor the toggle rear axle pin is stamped.

I attribute the lack of stamping to the transition period during which the gun was produced. If the ever-efficient Germans did in fact stamp every small part on the gun, then I don't have a ready explanation why neither the extractor nor toggle axle are stamped.

Ah, the plot thickens!

Jimbo · 07-28-2002, 05:30 AM

Eratta: typo error in my 1st post above.

SN 6394r is incorrect. The correct SN is 6294r.

Thank you,

The Managment...

Johnny Peppers · 07-28-2002, 12:29 PM

Jimbo,
Changing the toggle marking from the S/42 to 42 code would not have required a transition period in which standard markings were somehow left off.

Frank · 07-28-2002, 02:00 PM

Jimbo, I have a Mauser Armorers Replacement extractor in a rust blued Luger. The difference is obvious. When I compare it to any Salt Blued Mauser, that hasn't turned plum colored, I can't tell the difference. The extractor is unmarked.

Orv Reichert · 07-28-2002, 02:56 PM

Small German replacement parts were not marked with the makers code...only the MAJOR parts.

You should never base an evaluation/explanation on what a seller said!...verify!..or, someday, [when you go to sell it]...you will get a real lesson in economics.

on the Colt 1911's...offtopic:

When I was a supply Sgt in a Basic training unit..[Camp Roberts 1951] the troops used to take the .45s and take them apart, putting parts in a big pile.

They then reassembled them without any regard to what gun they came off of?...who cared, they were all interchangeable, right?

Orv Reichert
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> :

Lonnie Zimmerman · 07-28-2002, 11:24 PM

I think unumbered toggle pins are fairly common in Lugers. Seems like I read this somewhere in one of Jan"s books. I am sure Ralph would not sell a gun like this if it wasn"t proper.
Lonnie

MauserLugers · 07-29-2002, 04:04 AM

ALL -- I repeat, ALL -- the rear toggle pins were numbered with the last two digits on all of the military Mausers. Come on guys, this is basic stuff here. If it isn't numbered, it isn't correct and it isn't original, plain and simple. Stop making excuses for stuff that isn't correct, and stop playing the "what if game"! -- Bill Munis --

Roadkill · 07-29-2002, 11:46 AM

What about the grip screws?

RK

Lonnie Zimmerman · 07-29-2002, 01:47 PM

RK; grip screws on most early Erfurts were proofed, but Mausers never were.
Lonnie

Doubs · 07-29-2002, 02:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman:
<strong>RK; grip screws on most early Erfurts were proofed, but Mausers never were. Lonnie</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just an aside but Erfurt followed military directives concerning the inspection stamps on various small parts. DWM, OTOH, didn't follow military directives and only inspection stamped the parts they deemed necessary. To me, it makes the Erfurt Lugers more appealing. I'm sure others admire the DWM pistols for the lack of markings.

Roadkill · 07-29-2002, 02:41 PM

Ok, here's the grenade. If the initially referenced gun does not have a matching toggle pin and extractor but mint in all other factors, is it deemed mint/matching and can it be presented as such for a purchaser? Catch.

RK

07-25-2002, 10:46 PM	#1
sschultz User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: ca Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	42/1939s....Is this a coincidence? Just wanted to ask if anyone else has noticed mismatched/unnumbered rear axel pins on the standard military issue 1939 P08. In my case I think I have seen 2 very nice all original 1939s that had either a mismatch, or an unnumbered one(no other parts were mismatched). Thor also has a beauty with the same issue. So thats 3 in the last, lets say, 4 years that I have noticed. Now is this simply a co-inkey-dink, or did the rear axel pin guy/gal have a bad day/s at the office in 1939? Anyone else ever notice this? Would love to hear your comments. Thanks -stuart

07-28-2002, 02:56 PM	#14
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Small German replacement parts were not marked with the makers code...only the MAJOR parts. You should never base an evaluation/explanation on what a seller said!...verify!..or, someday, [when you go to sell it]...you will get a real lesson in economics. on the Colt 1911's...offtopic: When I was a supply Sgt in a Basic training unit..[Camp Roberts 1951] the troops used to take the .45s and take them apart, putting parts in a big pile. They then reassembled them without any regard to what gun they came off of?...who cared, they were all interchangeable, right? Orv Reichert <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> : __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-28-2002, 11:24 PM	#15
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I think unumbered toggle pins are fairly common in Lugers. Seems like I read this somewhere in one of Jan"s books. I am sure Ralph would not sell a gun like this if it wasn"t proper. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

07-29-2002, 01:47 PM	#18
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	RK; grip screws on most early Erfurts were proofed, but Mausers never were. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

07-26-2002, 11:48 AM	#2
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Is it possible that it's just the result of in service repair ?

07-26-2002, 04:33 PM	#3
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Stu, that would be my guess. Armor specials would provide the correct pin size, but without the number. Most armorers pins were graded to size. [img]smile.gif[/img]

07-26-2002, 09:41 PM	#4
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi sshultz, My 1939 s/42, SN 6394r, is all-matching except for 2 un-numbered parts. Both the extractor and the toggle rear axle are unstamped. No numbers. I bought the gun from Ralph Shattuck in "mint" condition and the bluing on the extractor is very definitely identical to the receiver and toggle. For some reason these parts were never stamped on the original gun. I assumed this error was because this gun is in the transition between s/42 and 42 codes. I figure they were just rushing things and these parts didn't get stamped. On the other hand, the germans are so teutonically efficient, it is very curious that these parts did not get stamped. To assist your research -- yes my 1939 has unnumbered parts.

07-26-2002, 11:01 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	One of the reasons there are so many 1911s with mismatched receivers & slides is the great rebuilds in the early 40s. Since the referenced guns are 39s and the parts are in wear areas replacement at the company armorer level is a possibilty. RK

07-27-2002, 02:06 AM	#6
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	I know of an instance in a far away place in 1969 where a Remington Rand .45 got a Colt slide because it looked cooler. I fired it yesterday-did some trigger work on it a few years ago-nice shooter.

07-27-2002, 05:35 PM	#7
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Hi To All! I dug out my Mauser P.08's and.... All three had the rear pins numbered to the gun... a 1937, S/42 & two 1939's, 42... FWIW....till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

07-27-2002, 06:52 PM	#8
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I checked my 1939 "S/42", "42", & "Police Banner" for stamps and all three have the rear pin numbered to the pistol. I also checked my 1938s, and 1940s and they also had the numbered rear pim. Marvin

07-27-2002, 09:38 PM	#9
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	I believe that all Mauser built Lugers, started life with a main toggle pin numbered to the pistol. If they were worn, lost, etc., they were replaced with either another numbered pin (not necessarily the correct number) or a Armors unnumbered pin. Other items that were prone to damage were the grips, firing pin, extractor and ejector. All except the ejector were originally numbered to the pistol. I'm not positive about late byf42 grips, early ones were numbered. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

07-28-2002, 05:13 AM	#10
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm going to have to have someone experienced look over my 1939 s/42. The extractor is not stamped but the bluing looks identical to the rest of the gun. It would be hard for me to believe the extractor was blued separately from the rest of the gun. Being a newbie, I can't yet determine from Ted's "look at it in the bright light of day" test that the bluing was original. As I bought the gun from Ralph in "mint original" condition, I assume the blueing is original. If the gun was re-worked and re-blued, I would expect the extractor to have the "s42" replacement stamp, which is not the case. Neither the extractor nor the toggle rear axle pin is stamped. I attribute the lack of stamping to the transition period during which the gun was produced. If the ever-efficient Germans did in fact stamp every small part on the gun, then I don't have a ready explanation why neither the extractor nor toggle axle are stamped. Ah, the plot thickens!

07-28-2002, 05:30 AM	#11
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Eratta: typo error in my 1st post above. SN 6394r is incorrect. The correct SN is 6294r. Thank you, The Managment...

07-28-2002, 12:29 PM	#12
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jimbo, Changing the toggle marking from the S/42 to 42 code would not have required a transition period in which standard markings were somehow left off.

07-28-2002, 02:00 PM	#13
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Jimbo, I have a Mauser Armorers Replacement extractor in a rust blued Luger. The difference is obvious. When I compare it to any Salt Blued Mauser, that hasn't turned plum colored, I can't tell the difference. The extractor is unmarked.

07-29-2002, 04:04 AM	#16
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	ALL -- I repeat, ALL -- the rear toggle pins were numbered with the last two digits on all of the military Mausers. Come on guys, this is basic stuff here. If it isn't numbered, it isn't correct and it isn't original, plain and simple. Stop making excuses for stuff that isn't correct, and stop playing the "what if game"! -- Bill Munis --

07-29-2002, 11:46 AM	#17
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	What about the grip screws? RK

07-29-2002, 02:36 PM	#19
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman: <strong>RK; grip screws on most early Erfurts were proofed, but Mausers never were. Lonnie</strong><hr></blockquote> Just an aside but Erfurt followed military directives concerning the inspection stamps on various small parts. DWM, OTOH, didn't follow military directives and only inspection stamped the parts they deemed necessary. To me, it makes the Erfurt Lugers more appealing. I'm sure others admire the DWM pistols for the lack of markings.

07-29-2002, 02:41 PM	#20
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Ok, here's the grenade. If the initially referenced gun does not have a matching toggle pin and extractor but mint in all other factors, is it deemed mint/matching and can it be presented as such for a purchaser? Catch. RK