Odd # 1 Luger...

[Pete Ebbink]

...don't know what to think... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=5780966

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[policeluger]

C'on Pete, you know what to think, and look at the over buffed hole where the mid toggle link pin fits in....and yours for under 150K..

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

It is a shame we can try and talk some sense into these people or at least post some sort of response to item so that others may know...

[Fritzer]

Do C&R laws absolve buyers/sellers from altered or obliterated serial numbers??
..unless they figure by that age, it really doesn't matter anymore.

Just curious.
Fritz.

[unspellable]

I think the Federal requirement for a serial number extends back only as far as the Federal Firearms Act of 1934. (!932? Whatever.) Firearms manufactured before this date are not required to have a serial number.

[Ron Smith]

If a firearm is serial numbered at production. And that serial # is altered,defaced,removed or replaced with a different #. It is in violation of Federal law. Regardless of when it was made. The only exception, I believe, would be for guns made before 1898. Prior to 1968, Gun makers were not required to ser# a firearm.

My opinion is that this was a rusted boat anchor that has been wire wheeled. The finish is not naturaly worn.It has been forcefully removed. And some Bubba decided to turn it in to the original prototype. "This'll fool'em by gar!!" If they truly believed it is what they espouse,it would'nt be for sale for $900. Plausible deniability." Well golly, I was'nt sure!"

Ron

[John Sabato]

Fritzer,

To be absolutely clear on an answer to your question, not only for you, but for any others new to collecting.

The answer is NO! A defaced firearm serial number (unless renumbered by the ATF) is still a federal criminal possession charge... and the person who actually did the defacing (if this can be determined) is liable for the act...

Ron,

I know of NO exemptions due to year of manufacture... if the gun was produced WITH a serial number, and it gets intentionally defaced the gun is contraband.

[Ron Smith]

I sent e-mail to AA. Suggesting that this item be removed from auction As it is in violation of Federal Firearms Law. We'll see what happens!

Ron

John, I was'nt absolutely certain about pre- 1898 guns. Thanks, Ron

[Fritzer]

I don't know this seller, and I don't want to make light of a VERY serious subject...but.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

- Apparently this guy is betting a stay at the federal hotel that this is the REAL #1 Luger.

- I checked his other for sale items, and he no longer has a need for these... used stamps (description= only used "one")
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=5762946

Fritz.

[John Sabato]

Good Sleuthing Fritzer... be afraid... be very afraid of doing business with someone who is clueless!

[Ron Smith]

Well, Luger # 1 is still up for bid. Evidently aiding and abetting in a felony is not priorital worry with AA. Anybody want to loan me $995.00 for a scrubbed and re-numbered POS Luger? I can re-number it, and sell to a "Mechanic"! <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

I wonder if they would throw in the set of dies?

Ron

[ratdog]

I also think that a person possessing an altered serial # gun is liable also, not just the alterer. I believe I read that on the ATF page or subguns somewhere!!!!!!!!!
Ignorance is no excuse (remember hearing that one all your life?!?!?!).......Bruce

[John Sabato]

Your are correct Ratdog... as I stated above </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">A defaced firearm serial number (unless renumbered by the ATF) is still a federal criminal possession charge... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">willfull possession of a gun known to be a defaced serial numbered firearm will land you in the federal pokey...

[ViggoG]

Hi Guys and Girls, <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />
While We're on the Subject of Altering Firearms !
I believe that the Charge of Altering Firearms and/or Serial No's thereof.
Also extends to renumbering Barrels to mate to another frame other than the original, Altering Barrels, and or Firing Mechanism's whereby an illegal firearm is produced is also a crime that extends beyond the Holder to the Maker/Alterer of such Weapons/Parts. Wherein both Holder / Maker / Alterer are both Individually and/or Collectively held Responsible. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
The responsibility of "Proving Innocence through Intent" falls entirely on the party being so charged with the Violation.
With "Ignorance is no excuse", being the biggest hurdle for the Defendent to overcome
As I have Been So Informed.
ViggoG

[Ron Smith]

Viggo, I believe that the ser# that the law pertains to, is the Number on the frame or receiver of the firearm. This is the number which cannot be altered. As any part of a firearm can be mailed, sold or otherwise dispensed or imparted to another individual without adhereing to ATF regs.,or as common merchandise. With the exception of the frame. Which retains the ser# of that firearm. And for all intents and purposes is the firearm. As far as ATF is concerned.

Regards, Ron

[ViggoG]

Ron S,
The barrel may be the only element of a weapon that provides a line of evidence in crime weapons identification, however weak it may be.
To alter or deface, or remove a serial number therefrom may destroy the one link of identification.
As in rifling mark identification of a crime weapon that has been disassembled and dispersed via internet sales.
I personally would be very cautious of alterring any barrel ID # without having the BATF in on the renumbering.
ViggoG

[AGE]

ViggoG,

Maybe the Luger barrels would be a concern, but most other gun barrels have no serial numbers and some like the 1911 are VERY easily changed. I even have a few 1911 barrels laying around.

You do have a point about crime evidence but I don't believe there is any legal problem at present with barrel serial number modification. Maybe we should worry about buying used barrels as they could have come from crime weapons (but after all, that's what the Nazi Lugers were).