1st Luger - need help identifying

bnz-39 · 10-25-2003, 08:32 PM

Hi, IÃ¢??m new to the board and collecting Lugers. I recently obtained my first Luger from a local WWII vet for $500. The Vet stated he brought the pistol back from Germany after WWII.

After my initial review I believe it is a 20Ã¢??s commercial Luger but am not able to identify it further. It is all matching with about 75% strawing remaining. The are only a few markings on the pistol which are Ã¢??DWMÃ¢?Â, Ã¢??GESICHERTÃ¢?Â, and a few small crown N marks. The serial number is 74,4XX. The Luger has a 4Ã¢?Â barrel and I believe itÃ¢??s chambered in 9mm. The pistol included a leather case, various tools, two magazines, and a leather lanyard. Inside the case is written Ã¢??F-3138Ã¢?Â. Let me know what you guys think.

Doubs · 10-25-2003, 09:02 PM

The five digit serial number in the 74,400 range makes it a pre-WW1 commercial. It's thought that commercial serial numbers ran to approximately 75,000 before the war. Is the holster marked other than the "F-3138"? (Look closely at the back of it.)

The wood bottom mag is correct for the pistol. Is it serial numbered? The blued mag is a later one. It's possible that the pistol was purchased privately by a military man or that the Vet obtained it from a civilian. The tool appears to be marked and the leather lanyard will be of great interest to many on this board. Lanyards are not commonly seen.

At $500 you got a great deal, IMO. Can you take more pictures with closeups of everything?

Ron Wood · 10-25-2003, 09:03 PM

It is difficult to tell what the finish is like from the photo, but if it is all original with matching numbers and in good condition, you have really made an excellent purchase. The serial number places it in the last of the pre-WWI commercials. It is a 1914 commercial, which is a relatively difficult Luger to find. The Crown/N mark on the left side of the receiver should be horizontal, i.e. lying on its side. I see that the tools include a pin punch, which probably means that the holster is a commercial model as well, and also a very desirable item. Please post some additional clear, closeup pictures of the Luger and holster if you can so that we can see the markings and condition. You may have hit the jackpot with your very first Luger.

bnz-39 · 10-25-2003, 09:58 PM

Here are a few more close up pics. If there are any specific angles or areas I should photograph, please let me know.

bnz-39 · 10-25-2003, 09:59 PM

Edward Tinker · 10-25-2003, 10:04 PM

Sounds like you did okay!

Even if reblued, that is a good deal!

Can we get a bunch of photos?

I can help you if you like?

I lightened it a bit, and it looks nice so far,

Ed

bnz-39 · 10-25-2003, 10:17 PM

Dwight Gruber · 10-25-2003, 10:39 PM

It would be good to see photos of the inside of the frame and of the link which connects the toggle to the recoil spring. The barrel serial# appears to show "halo", which is an indicator that the gun has not been refinished.

--Dwight

John D. · 10-25-2003, 10:54 PM

bnz-39,

While others are commenting - I have to tell you - those are EXCELLENT photos! My thanks for sharing them!!! What a great effort - and as Dwight, I'm very interested in the Lanyard. But simply outstanding presentation on the photos....

My thanks for posting them...!!

Ron Wood · 10-26-2003, 12:32 AM

IMHO, Todd has a winner. It looks to me to be an original 1914 Commercial and that is a scarce commercial holster. The lanyard is neat, but it is much newer than the gun and holster. A bargan and a great find. More photos of the interior will help, but I will be really surprised if they indicate anything other than an un-messed with Luger worth a lot more than he paid for it.

Pete Ebbink · 10-26-2003, 12:40 AM

Hello Todd,

You certainly did make out well on this purchase. I recently saw a commercial holster, in condition a bit better that yours, sell for over $ 900 at the past Reno gun show !

Congratulations !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

bnz-39 · 10-26-2003, 12:41 AM

Thanks to all. Here are some additional pictures. I'm not sure what the toggle, etc is but I hope these help. Even though one of my hobbies is macro photography, it is difficult to take pictures of the inside of the frame. Again, if there are other areas of the pistol you would like to see, please let me know.

As for a monetary value, what would you estimate?

Ron Wood · 10-26-2003, 12:48 AM

Oops. Mismatched sear bar, otherwise a terrific piece. Value? At least twice what you paid for it just for the gun.

Dwight Gruber · 10-26-2003, 01:08 AM

BNZ-39,

The toggle is the main hinged piece with the knurled finger-pieces on the sides. The S-shaped strap which hangs down from it is properly in the white. Yes, it can be difficult to photograph the inside of the frame, but your photo shows whats necessary, it also is in the white, polished as is proper for a rust blued Luger. On a reblue, these parts are usually blued as well.

Curiosity assuaged. This is a terrific Luger and you have done extraordinarily well. Most of us can only dreamm of experiencing this good fortune.

--Dwight

bnz-39 · 10-26-2003, 01:42 AM

It's difficult to tell from the picture, but if the sear bar is the horizontal bar, it's actually numbered correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Doubs · 10-26-2003, 02:10 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by bnz-39:
It's difficult to tell from the picture, but if the sear bar is the horizontal bar, it's actually numbered correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong. <hr /></blockquote>You are correct but the first picture also made me think it was a mis-match. It appears to be the number 30. Your second picture makes it clear that it's really 39. The sear bar, BTW, is the correct unmodified early type that won't permit opening the action when the chamber has a cartridge in it.

Ron Wood · 10-26-2003, 02:19 AM

Thank you for the additional picture of the sear bar...I feel much better now. This is a great Luger. Congratulations. It is one of the nicest '14 Commercials I have seen. Please post some additonal photos of the hoster, particularly if there are markings on the back.

bnz-39 · 10-26-2003, 11:46 AM

I am unable to find any markings on the back.

Ron Wood · 10-26-2003, 12:41 PM

Thank you for the additional pictures. That is a very nice holster. I wasn't sure from the first set of photos, but now I am reasonably certain that your holster is for a 4 3/4" barrel Luger. I have not seen this vintage commercial holster in that barrel length before. You have made a very fortunate and desirable discovery. Again, congratulations.

drbuster · 10-26-2003, 01:01 PM

Ron, I think this holster is really a commercial 1906, similar to mine as posted in the Members Gallery by my good friend (and computer pic posting savvy) Pete Ebbink. It's amazing what good fortune these "newbies" have. Recall the earlier chap that purchased a 1906 French commercial at a flea market sale! We who look harder and longer are seldom rewarded with such good fortune.

10-25-2003, 08:32 PM	#1
bnz-39 User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Iowa Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1st Luger - need help identifying Hi, IÃ¢??m new to the board and collecting Lugers. I recently obtained my first Luger from a local WWII vet for $500. The Vet stated he brought the pistol back from Germany after WWII. After my initial review I believe it is a 20Ã¢??s commercial Luger but am not able to identify it further. It is all matching with about 75% strawing remaining. The are only a few markings on the pistol which are Ã¢??DWMÃ¢?Â, Ã¢??GESICHERTÃ¢?Â, and a few small crown N marks. The serial number is 74,4XX. The Luger has a 4Ã¢?Â barrel and I believe itÃ¢??s chambered in 9mm. The pistol included a leather case, various tools, two magazines, and a leather lanyard. Inside the case is written Ã¢??F-3138Ã¢?Â. Let me know what you guys think.

10-25-2003, 09:03 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	It is difficult to tell what the finish is like from the photo, but if it is all original with matching numbers and in good condition, you have really made an excellent purchase. The serial number places it in the last of the pre-WWI commercials. It is a 1914 commercial, which is a relatively difficult Luger to find. The Crown/N mark on the left side of the receiver should be horizontal, i.e. lying on its side. I see that the tools include a pin punch, which probably means that the holster is a commercial model as well, and also a very desirable item. Please post some additional clear, closeup pictures of the Luger and holster if you can so that we can see the markings and condition. You may have hit the jackpot with your very first Luger. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-25-2003, 10:04 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Sounds like you did okay! Even if reblued, that is a good deal! Can we get a bunch of photos? I can help you if you like? I lightened it a bit, and it looks nice so far, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-26-2003, 12:32 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	IMHO, Todd has a winner. It looks to me to be an original 1914 Commercial and that is a scarce commercial holster. The lanyard is neat, but it is much newer than the gun and holster. A bargan and a great find. More photos of the interior will help, but I will be really surprised if they indicate anything other than an un-messed with Luger worth a lot more than he paid for it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-26-2003, 12:48 AM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Oops. Mismatched sear bar, otherwise a terrific piece. Value? At least twice what you paid for it just for the gun. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-25-2003, 09:02 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	The five digit serial number in the 74,400 range makes it a pre-WW1 commercial. It's thought that commercial serial numbers ran to approximately 75,000 before the war. Is the holster marked other than the "F-3138"? (Look closely at the back of it.) The wood bottom mag is correct for the pistol. Is it serial numbered? The blued mag is a later one. It's possible that the pistol was purchased privately by a military man or that the Vet obtained it from a civilian. The tool appears to be marked and the leather lanyard will be of great interest to many on this board. Lanyards are not commonly seen. At $500 you got a great deal, IMO. Can you take more pictures with closeups of everything?

10-25-2003, 09:58 PM	#4
bnz-39 User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Iowa Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are a few more close up pics. If there are any specific angles or areas I should photograph, please let me know.

10-25-2003, 09:59 PM	#5
bnz-39 User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Iowa Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

10-25-2003, 10:17 PM	#7
bnz-39 User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Iowa Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

10-25-2003, 10:39 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	It would be good to see photos of the inside of the frame and of the link which connects the toggle to the recoil spring. The barrel serial# appears to show "halo", which is an indicator that the gun has not been refinished. --Dwight

10-25-2003, 10:54 PM	#9
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	bnz-39, While others are commenting - I have to tell you - those are EXCELLENT photos! My thanks for sharing them!!! What a great effort - and as Dwight, I'm very interested in the Lanyard. But simply outstanding presentation on the photos.... My thanks for posting them...!!

10-26-2003, 12:40 AM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Todd, You certainly did make out well on this purchase. I recently saw a commercial holster, in condition a bit better that yours, sell for over $ 900 at the past Reno gun show ! Congratulations !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-26-2003, 12:41 AM	#12
bnz-39 User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Iowa Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to all. Here are some additional pictures. I'm not sure what the toggle, etc is but I hope these help. Even though one of my hobbies is macro photography, it is difficult to take pictures of the inside of the frame. Again, if there are other areas of the pistol you would like to see, please let me know. As for a monetary value, what would you estimate?

10-26-2003, 01:08 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	BNZ-39, The toggle is the main hinged piece with the knurled finger-pieces on the sides. The S-shaped strap which hangs down from it is properly in the white. Yes, it can be difficult to photograph the inside of the frame, but your photo shows whats necessary, it also is in the white, polished as is proper for a rust blued Luger. On a reblue, these parts are usually blued as well. Curiosity assuaged. This is a terrific Luger and you have done extraordinarily well. Most of us can only dreamm of experiencing this good fortune. --Dwight

10-26-2003, 01:42 AM	#15
bnz-39 User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Iowa Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It's difficult to tell from the picture, but if the sear bar is the horizontal bar, it's actually numbered correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

10-26-2003, 02:10 AM	#16
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by bnz-39: <strong>It's difficult to tell from the picture, but if the sear bar is the horizontal bar, it's actually numbered correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You are correct but the first picture also made me think it was a mis-match. It appears to be the number 30. Your second picture makes it clear that it's really 39. The sear bar, BTW, is the correct unmodified early type that won't permit opening the action when the chamber has a cartridge in it.

10-26-2003, 02:19 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Thank you for the additional picture of the sear bar...I feel much better now. This is a great Luger. Congratulations. It is one of the nicest '14 Commercials I have seen. Please post some additonal photos of the hoster, particularly if there are markings on the back. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-26-2003, 11:46 AM	#18
bnz-39 User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Iowa Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am unable to find any markings on the back.

10-26-2003, 12:41 PM	#19
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Thank you for the additional pictures. That is a very nice holster. I wasn't sure from the first set of photos, but now I am reasonably certain that your holster is for a 4 3/4" barrel Luger. I have not seen this vintage commercial holster in that barrel length before. You have made a very fortunate and desirable discovery. Again, congratulations. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-26-2003, 01:01 PM	#20
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ron, I think this holster is really a commercial 1906, similar to mine as posted in the Members Gallery by my good friend (and computer pic posting savvy) Pete Ebbink. It's amazing what good fortune these "newbies" have. Recall the earlier chap that purchased a 1906 French commercial at a flea market sale! We who look harder and longer are seldom rewarded with such good fortune.