Krieghoff Commercial - P Code, Series 1

[John D.]

I've been asked if I could post some of my Kriegs on this Forum - and I'd be delighted to post a few. I'd encourage others to post short descriptions of their pieces as well - and if folks would like to post them without "attribution" to them personally - please feel free to e-mail the pictures and the descriptions, and I'd be pleased to post them for you as "anonymous". In the meantime - enjoy...!

This is a Krieghoff Commercial - Early "P" Series, which are side framed inscribed. This example rates at about 85% blues and 80% Straw. Serial number "P183", it has the early placement style "P" placement, which is place directly in line with the "183". Grips are correct for this Krieghoff variation.

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Right side view.
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5 Point Star on right side of receiver. This was the "rejection" mark, amongst others, that denotes a "Commercial". Variations are noted.
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The machining of the lugs are unique to Krieghoff as compared to other manufacturers. This supports the analysis by Mr. Gibson that Krieghoff used their own manufacturing techniques as compared to Simson (and Erfurt).
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Sideplate detail. Notice the serial number and LWaA2 stamps on both the plate extension and the lever. These are correct for this variation.
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Top View. Correct HK Die on the toggle (Gibson reference "C-1") along with the "Commercial" (CN) on the forward-left of the breechblock.
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LWaA2 proof on the breechblock.
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Firing Pin retainer - again found the correct LWaA2 stamp.
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[John D.]

Continued.... Details.

Detail of the inscription. Note closely the formation of the characters. There are only a few verified pieces that stray from this stylized type style - including DWM, Presentation and Post War. In the "P" Code Series one - no variations are noted (P305 as noted Presentation). If you spot one - be very leery of counterfeits.
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Locking Bolt well. The Four Point star is somewhat rare - but other verified P Series 1 Commercials are noted with this stamp - as are Military Commercials and a very few Post War. No P Series 2 Commercials have been noted to date with this stamp.
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Rear Frame Well.....
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Correct "GESICHERT" die. This can be a tip-off if the frame is not correct and the HK P-Code is counterfeit as well.
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Barrel. No witness marks - and the barrel stamps are correct - CN with the LWaA2 stamp. Notice the absence of the barrel gauge and the HALO around the CN.
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Undercut of the forward grip strap. The subtle "V" is unique to Krieghoff, as compared to other era manufacturers.
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Forward toggle link proof.
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Close up of the toggle stamp - which is a "C-1" type die as defined by Gibson..
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[Russ]

John D. Very Very Nice!

[drbuster]

John D., Great pics, thanks for taking the time to post these for all of us to see. One question, however. The right side of the clip release button appears blued. I know this is correct for later HK's, such as my 1940 dated one that you helped identify (also on the Members Gallery). But is it also correct for your much earlier P commercial? I love to learn from you as you know so much about HK's.

[John D.]

Hi Russ and Doc..!

Russ my thanks!!! Also - Doc - pull up a chair - my reply turned out slightly longer then I expected.!!!

Doc, whether you know it or not â?? you are asking a terrific question â?? but I suspect you know thatâ?¦!!

First â?? the magazine release (right side) were fire blued, as you probably know â?? rather then â??bluedâ?� using a rust/chemical process. For that, youâ??ll notice a range of color and hue on the right side of the release. However, your question is more general in nature â?? dealing specifically with what is â??correctâ?� for certain years and Krieghoff variations â?? which brings up â??whenâ?� the P Code commercials were manufactured.

In short â?? there is no conclusive evidence that the magazine releases were cut over from straw to blue, either by year or by serial number range. In fact, during the early production â?? both strawed and fire-blued my be presumed to be correct. For example â?? one of my Early â??Sâ?�, my Mid-Series â??Sâ?�and one of my "1937"s in fact have fire-blued releases, while another of my Early â??Sâ?�, Late â??Sâ?�, â??36â?� and â??1936â?� are strawed. My other 1937 (another then noted above) and 1938 are fire blued â?? so, specifically, the â??1937â?� could be proper with either as pieces exist with both type of mag releases (see above on "1937" - however, there isnâ??t enough data on the â??1938â?� production to determine if one type is exclusive).

Using Mr. Gibsonâ??s book and my own notes as references, letâ??s take a look at just the Early P code Series Commercial â?? and see if we can associated a magazine release type to a specific year of production (While I donâ??t have my notes or Mr. Gibsonâ??s book at hand (Iâ??m at the office), I reserve the right to edit this post later )

The serial number of this piece is â??P 183â?� as noted, and therefore â?? would put it near the beginning of the run of this variation (Gibson notes up to serial # "P 960" are inclusive of the Early variation). Using the date inscription of â??P 305â?� as a landmark â?? that was side inscribed on or before May of 1938 (reference photo archive and Gibson) as a presentation Commercial. Therefore, itâ??s reasonable to presume that â??P 183â?� was manufactured before that date â?? in 1937 or in the first months of 1938, with overall production of the Early P-Series perhaps beginning even sooner (depending on the markings noted). That being the case, and as noted â?? both my 1937 and 1938 have the same magazine release type (fire blued) as this Early P Code example (P 183) - so can an anology be made to production dates? Let's see.....

What we do know is that both the Early and Mid Series P Code commercials have a different commercial proof structure then the â??Late P Code commercialsâ?� as defined by Gibson. The Late â??Pâ?� variation do, in fact, conform to the Proof Laws which were passed in 1939 and became effective in the first half of 1940 (I believe Mr. Gibson notes the date by month â?? but I canâ??t recall if he notes March, April or May â?? and I donâ??t have his book handy â?? Iâ??ll edit this later?). In any event, it would appear that the Late â??Pâ?� series were marked to conform to that Proof Law, thereby dating this specific variation as the earliest production in the late 1939 or 1940.

What all this data says, given the span of manufacturing dates for the â??Earlyâ?� (side frame inscribed) and â??Midâ?� (no side frame inscription) P code commercials â?? is that during that same period for Military production, both magazine releases were employed â?? but again, that time reference minimally spans at least a 2.5 year period (and probably more, if one accepts the 1937 date for Early P Codes). That is based on the dates we are aware of (P 305) and cut over to Late â??Pâ?� Code beginning at Serial # â??P 1060â?�.

Wow â?? sorry for the windy replyâ?¦ In short, yes â?? either are correct and Early P codes and within this variation, examples have been noted with â??bothâ?� types of magazine releases. Further, no conclusive evidence states that there was a specific year or assigned production serial number that a change over occured for the type of magazine release installed. Since that seems to be the case, in a larger sense, it also leads to the statement next paragraph.

It also raises many questions about the Krieghoff manufacturing and production process - i.e. what was actually installed and when; and where the raw parts were produced and "matched" to the various years produced. But, that's for another day.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[John Sabato]

Great Photos John D... looking forward to the next Krieg pics...

[Ron Wood]

Nice gun John. Although I joke about "reproductions", Krieghoffs are pretty nice machines. I once owned an early S-code Krieghoff, so I do have an appreciaton for the "younger set".

[John D.]

Hey John and Ron..!

John S. - I have another that I posted elsewhere, and will try to repost it on this Forum... However - that being said - I think I'm finally getting my digital camera figured out!! When in doubt - "read the instruction manual".. Thought I'd lost it after 3 years - but I found it..!!!

And Ron - don't tell anyone I said this - BUT - I keep looking at those early Lugers, before the reproductions... there is something about them - maybe the dished toggles, or the slightly elongated frame, or.. I dunno.. I almost purchased a beautiful example about 4 months ago... They really are something special - and every collector should have one or two (or 3, 4, 5...??).... Also - my thanks for your comments about the Krieg shown above....!!!

[drbuster]

John D., greatly appreciate your very learned discussion re "blued" and "fireblued" magazine catches. I never expected to elicit such a response, but I learned something that is not in the books. That was the reason for my query. I will also look forward to "edits" if you deem them necessary. Again, thank you. Always delighted with your postings. Long live HK!

[John D.]

My Thanks right back at you. Remember though - I've been at this "Krieg thing" for almost 20 years now (I guess I really am an old guy!!! )

For that, it's always a pleasure to assist with someone who asks questions - and you had a good one which lead me to various comments, as the magazine release is often "overlooked" by self-appointed "Krieghoff Experts" - but it's actually an interesting indicator and lead in to various conversations and research (as you can tell from my rather lengthy post). So, your question was very appropriate, as you know - my thanks for that..!!

As well - I'll try to post either one of my 1937s or the 1938 in the next few days, so you can take a look at some of the differences I referenced in my reply above. Over the course of the next couple of months - perhaps just focusing in on the earlier production Krieghoffs would make sense - 1940 and earlier, as your's is a fine 1940 example.

Doc, the pleasure is all mine, and thanks for your comments and questions.

BTW: When are you getting your next HK??!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Pete Ebbink]

Hey John D.,

I sure there must be some hybridized Model 1900 floating around with a nice H&K front toggle link... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I will keep my eyes open in case one crosses my path...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[drbuster]

Thank YOU for the kind words, John D. I would hope my next HK would be an early commercial with the HK logo on the frame. It may take my entire pension fund to land it however! In any event, I hope to be looking at the Reno show in November. If I see dished toggles and a HK logo on the front toggle, I will immediately call Pete!

[John D.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
<strong>...there must be some hybridized Model 1900 floating around with a nice H&K front toggle link...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> Hey Pete and Doc..!!!

Pete, unfotunately - you may be right!!!

As well - seeing as how there are only a couple of us that post to this area of the Forum (Hey also John S. and Ron..!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) here's what I was thinking last night. Let me know your thoughts, and whether you think the LugerForum is capable to do this - as I think it would be really interesting....

First - there are some really terrific folks on this Forum, with a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience, and the idea is to have one person for a short time, present a specific variation in detail. For example - in my case, early production HKs, as I noted above. As another, perhaps Ron could present a few of his pieces of a specific generation. Or, Jerry B. could lead us through a holster course of some sort - what to look for - and what to watch out for..?? Very narrow in focus - almost as an on-line detailed and interactive study of a very narrow area.

Additionally, my thought was to set up a separate area on this Forum that is closed - and to gain access to these "on-line" symposiums, simply request permission to either John S. or myself, so those who don't want to contribute in a productive way, are precluded. That accomplishes two things. For some who would want to show their pieces, it's scary to "exhibit" them in "public" - even though this is a closed site. As well, it would keep out the "general conversations and banter" that goes on in most of the threads - and those who simply "lurk".

In thinking through this last night, a couple of ground rules would have to be established - such as questions can be raised pertaining to what is being discussed. Further, absolutely no flaming - no matter how apparently "insignificant" would be tolerated. For example - it would be terrific to discuss questions such as "I have a similar piece, and why is mine marked in a different way" - rather then an post stating "Here's mine - it's proper, yours is highly questionable"... There is a vast difference between the two approaches.

Finally - using a separate area of this Forum, it becomes it's own distinct "area". I'd love to see some of Pete's collection and Ron's, or Tom's or whoeverâ??s - as they have invested a lot of time and resources in first hand research. However, as me - I think there is a reluctance to share it, given a wider audience. With a closed audience - all with the same "agenda", the environment becomes quantifiably different. The attendees are there to "learn" while the person presenting their knowledge - is there to assist in that learning process.

Anyway - just a rough idea - so I'd invite others to comment and provide feedback. Heck, I dunno if this is something that might be of interest to the rest - but I do know I would be interested to learn first-hand from others unique knowledge and insight - but that's just me. Also - after the "topic at hand" is throughly discussed for a week or 2 (or 3? - I don't know), the closed Forum is cleared - and a new subject is introduced. The "archives from that Forum may be stored in a the "Reference" section I mentioned a few weeks ago, perhaps.

Oh - and Doc - I'll keep my eyes open for a good side-frame inscribed HK for you..! They are difficult to find - but well worth the wait..!!

Best to you!

John D.

[drbuster]

Thanks, John D. As for my humble opinion, I like the Krieghoff section the way it is. The new Forum has been reasonbly free of "flaming", not like the old forum. I know posts are kind of sparse on the HK subject, but check out Still's new forum. Posts can be sparse on several subjects. How would I know something new and interesting is being posted on a new closed HK forum? Just my $0.02 worth.

[John D.]

Hey Doc..!

Sorry about that and making it confusing in my above post - but these Forums would not change at all..!!

Rather, just a new "discussion" area on the LugerForum (something like "Specialized Luger Symposiums" - or whatever...). I could also update the title to reflect the Subject - like: "Luger Symposium - Police Banners", so folks would always know what is being discussed. However - to access those discussions - they simply request permission, as I noted above - and approval from the person who is presenting those topics. (so, if it were Ron's presentation, and you wanted access - Ron approves or denies your request. I guess it's sort of like Ron could choose to invite you over to his house to see his "collection", if you see what I mean??)

If they make the request - they get a a short reminder about the "ground rules" and their acknowledgement that this specialized Forum area is different then other Forums on this site...??

Honestly - and personally for me, I have some HKs I've never shown in "public" - even on a closed site such as this. I probably would never "disclose" them. But, if I knew it was you, Ron, Frank, Thor, Pete, John S., etc - - or serious HK collectors, I would post them in a "private" way - and elicit your feedback and comments. A "closed area" of this Forum affords us that capability, if you see what I mean?

I'm not really concerned with the activity on this Forum, as with nearly 1700 Registered - it's plenty active already We really do have some outstanding folks here..!!!

[Edward Tinker]

Very nice John!

Too much type reading tho! LOL

Ed

[John D.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>Too much type reading tho! LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You just like 'da pictures..

[Edward Tinker]

yup

[drbuster]

John D., that further explanation sounds alot better. Seems like a very interesting idea. Any body else have any thoughts?