Krieghoff??? on Gunbroker

Dwight Gruber · 11-01-2003, 03:05 AM

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=13126379

Comments should prove interesting.

As Pete sez, "I have no connection with the sale of this gun."

--Dwight

Thor · 11-01-2003, 11:30 PM

Interesting that the barrel and the rest of the Luger appear to have different finish treatments or at least age of finish. "It wasnt me, it was just SOMEBODY that looked like me!"

John D. · 11-02-2003, 11:11 AM

Hey Dwight and Thor..!

Sorry for the delayed reply - but I saw this post yesterday AM - and figured I'd reply when I got back from a wedding we attended. Well - it was a rather long reception!!

Anyway - as you know, PX Lugers typically were numbered (large digets) - and were blued to a matching finish. As well, there are characteristics such as the toggle "machining" (many small parts were done by local SUHL machinists as the HK factory ran out of small parts in the construction of the PX Lugers), so there are some common aspects to these PX Lugers.

However - internally-numbered may have a "multi-finish" and are typicially a hodge-podge of specific parts - and are "post war parts" HKs. There is one aspect that bothers me from the photo - if you look at the sideframe - that alone is a different blue/finish from the rest of the frame - which instantly raises a red flag. It would be interesting to look at this one - and see what parts it contains.

The third are the GI built parts guns - and typically won't be "inscribed" - so again, it brings up that "red flag" noted above - but moreso, since both the side finish and inscription comes into question....

On the other hand, it would also be interesting to see what/if this one has for any provenance from the estate, and whether the estate has any documentation putting "HARGUS R. TYLER" in Suhl at 1945. If documemtation was available for that - it would still be interesting to closely examine this specific "example" - as well as the engraving techniue used on the name - and if any parts are internally numberd...???? My guess is that would be the only way to "verify" this piece...

Best to all..!!!

- John D.

Big Norm · 11-02-2003, 12:20 PM

For a thousand bucko's of my hard earned money, I wouldn't touch it. There are too many other Lugers I want that I can use my welfare check on.
Big Norm

Dwight Gruber · 11-02-2003, 02:56 PM

John D,

An informed and informative response, I -didn't- actually know those things about occupation Krieghoffs, so thanks much for the new information.

What caught my attention were the manufacturing characteristics. I broke out my copy of Gibson and looked at his comparison photographs, to my eyes the toggle ramp looks more like the Simson example (as, perhaps, does the toggle grip machining). I don't know how much stock to put in these examples. I also wondered about the grips.

I am intrigued, but I agree with Norm about the uses of my hard-earned money.

--Dwight

Doug G. · 11-02-2003, 07:59 PM

Here is a pic of the top, I had posted this very same question on the military board but got no response. The odd thing is what looks like an Ordnance bomb on the rear toggle.

John D. · 11-04-2003, 10:35 AM

Hey Doug..!

Can you share with us what this toggle is attaced to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ? As well - perhaps someone can assist on the proof on the rear link..

Thanks!!!

John Sabato · 11-04-2003, 02:02 PM

John D.

Here are the other two photos from this now closed auction...

Also - Could you please check your email and PM's for messages from me

thanks!

John D. · 11-04-2003, 02:15 PM

Thanks John!!!

I thought Doug was talking about a different one - but guess not!!

Hey Doug - if it's the same Luger - how about some additional pics of the internal parts, and any markings (also any marks under the grips?)....

Best to you - and thanks again, John S...!

Doug G. · 11-05-2003, 12:49 AM

John, the seller only sent the one pic that I posted. I would assume that if we asked that he would comply.

11-01-2003, 03:05 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Krieghoff??? on Gunbroker http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=13126379 Comments should prove interesting. As Pete sez, "I have no connection with the sale of this gun." --Dwight

11-01-2003, 11:30 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Interesting that the barrel and the rest of the Luger appear to have different finish treatments or at least age of finish. "It wasnt me, it was just SOMEBODY that looked like me!" __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-02-2003, 07:59 PM	#6
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Here is a pic of the top, I had posted this very same question on the military board but got no response. The odd thing is what looks like an Ordnance bomb on the rear toggle. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

11-04-2003, 02:02 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	John D. Here are the other two photos from this now closed auction... Also - Could you please check your email and PM's for messages from me thanks! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-05-2003, 12:49 AM	#10
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	John, the seller only sent the one pic that I posted. I would assume that if we asked that he would comply. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

11-02-2003, 11:11 AM	#3
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hey Dwight and Thor..! Sorry for the delayed reply - but I saw this post yesterday AM - and figured I'd reply when I got back from a wedding we attended. Well - it was a rather long reception!! Anyway - as you know, PX Lugers typically were numbered (large digets) - and were blued to a matching finish. As well, there are characteristics such as the toggle "machining" (many small parts were done by local SUHL machinists as the HK factory ran out of small parts in the construction of the PX Lugers), so there are some common aspects to these PX Lugers. However - internally-numbered may have a "multi-finish" and are typicially a hodge-podge of specific parts - and are "post war parts" HKs. There is one aspect that bothers me from the photo - if you look at the sideframe - that alone is a different blue/finish from the rest of the frame - which instantly raises a red flag. It would be interesting to look at this one - and see what parts it contains. The third are the GI built parts guns - and typically won't be "inscribed" - so again, it brings up that "red flag" noted above - but moreso, since both the side finish and inscription comes into question.... On the other hand, it would also be interesting to see what/if this one has for any provenance from the estate, and whether the estate has any documentation putting "HARGUS R. TYLER" in Suhl at 1945. If documemtation was available for that - it would still be interesting to closely examine this specific "example" - as well as the engraving techniue used on the name - and if any parts are internally numberd...???? My guess is that would be the only way to "verify" this piece... Best to all..!!! - John D.

11-02-2003, 12:20 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	For a thousand bucko's of my hard earned money, I wouldn't touch it. There are too many other Lugers I want that I can use my welfare check on. Big Norm

11-02-2003, 02:56 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	John D, An informed and informative response, I -didn't- actually know those things about occupation Krieghoffs, so thanks much for the new information. What caught my attention were the manufacturing characteristics. I broke out my copy of Gibson and looked at his comparison photographs, to my eyes the toggle ramp looks more like the Simson example (as, perhaps, does the toggle grip machining). I don't know how much stock to put in these examples. I also wondered about the grips. I am intrigued, but I agree with Norm about the uses of my hard-earned money. --Dwight

11-04-2003, 10:35 AM	#7
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hey Doug..! Can you share with us what this toggle is attaced to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ? As well - perhaps someone can assist on the proof on the rear link.. Thanks!!!

11-04-2003, 02:15 PM	#9
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Thanks John!!! I thought Doug was talking about a different one - but guess not!! Hey Doug - if it's the same Luger - how about some additional pics of the internal parts, and any markings (also any marks under the grips?).... Best to you - and thanks again, John S...!