Frame mark on artillery luger.

barr · 02-15-2003, 08:08 PM

On my 1917 DWM artillery Luger, the frame and some of the parts associated with the frame are a different sn. than the barrel and action. The frame looks to be newer or at least is in better shape, in that it retains almost 98% of its bluing. Also the trigger is blued to match the frame and has the same sn. There is a mark on the front of the frame just below the serial no. The following is the address for the image of the mark:

Anyone care to speculate on what it signifies? Is there any way to determine who and where the frame was made? Other than the serial no. 9006, and this mark, there are no other marks on the frame. I am hoping that perhaps this mark would be a makers mark.
Would appreciate any help in this area, thanks, barr.

Thor · 02-15-2003, 08:29 PM

looks like it was made in the "s" block to me!
from the pics I saw of your gun, the FRAME was made by MAuser as evidenced by the "P.08" marking on the left frame flat area and the "Mauser Frame Bump". I believe it was originally a part of a 1941 manufactured "byf 41" Mauser Luger. All Artillery Lugers, as issued, would have strawed parts and with the DWM toggle it should have a DWM frame. It looks to me that the entire Lugers has been salt blued, even the graduated flat blade on the rear sight. This part should be polished in the white with rust bluing down in the numbers and graduated line markings if original. Should have fire blued grips screws, sear spring, toggle pins. Strawed trigger, ejector, magazine release button, take down lever. Wood magazine bottom (nickel or tin body), wood grips. See Erfurt example.

Lugerdoc · 02-16-2003, 08:25 AM

Last weekend at a local show, I picked up a 1914 Erfurt LPO8. Unfortunately nickel plated with a couple of mismatched small parts (I've already sold it as a shooter). But what was interesting, is that in addition to the crown/L normal inspector's stamp on the front of the trigger guard, it was stamped with a large "flowing W" on the very top of the front grip strap where it meets the trigger guard and directly below the mag release button. Does anyone know for sure what this indicates? If I were to guess, I might call this a Wruttenberg state "acceptance". Tom H.

barr · 02-16-2003, 12:43 PM

Thanks Thor,
I figured the frame was probably made later that the barrel assembly. What is the 'Mauser Bump', that you refer to?
Also, what do refer to by the 's block'?
Hate to sound like a newbie, but that's what I am, but would like to know more about these guns.
Thanks again, barr.

Thor · 02-16-2003, 01:29 PM

Dear barr: exactly what we are here for, to help explain! Lugers were made in blocks, others have expained this better than me. They started out with #1 then after 99, it went to 100, then to 9999, then to 1a, then all the way to 9999a, then to 2b, and so on! They didnt always start over so you need to see what blocks of production were done in each year. Jan Still's books document this production for each year. A good idea is to buy books of research results. You will enjoy this as much as buying Lugers and it makes the experience more enjoyable if you know what you are buying before you get it. Please continue to ask any questions! We are hear to help! I follow mine advice and ask questions when I cant get info out of a book. AND....not all books are 100% correct and it is good to cross reference the material. Good luck and let us know if we can help you!

Edward Tinker · 02-16-2003, 01:53 PM

What is a MAUSER BUMP?

Can anyone explain to me the real thinking Mauser had when they produced their early Lugers with the No Mauser hump and then some were intermixed with the Mauser hump and finally all were produced with no Mauser hump or bump?

The early MauserÃ¢??s had mixed humps and no humps, but for instance, the G dates seem NOT to be humped, but they all have a thickened back where the hump is, to better contain the rear axle pin during the rearward most movement of the receiver forks. The humped Mauser simply had some of the thickened rear frame REMOVED to form the hump.

I have no pictures of the Hump but it is formed at the very rear back of the frame above the lanyard loop. The back of the frame on DWM's is straight up vertical. Some K-dates, G-dates and 1936-S/42 MauserÃ¢??s are also straight up or vertical. The Hump causes the rear of the frame to not be vertical, it has a curved appearance to it. You can easily see it from the side. The Mauser Military Lugers are the only ones that have the HUMP, I think! It is interesting Mauser elected to remove that section of metal to return the frame length to the same as a DWM Luger!

I believe quoted from Ted, but not positive, here is a picture of the Mauser bump:

Pete Ebbink · 02-16-2003, 02:40 PM

Here is some great info. Luger Forum member, Bill Munis, sent me awhile ago about the Mauser humps :

" Hi Pete,
The "Mauser Bumb" -- I call it the mauser hump -- is usually found on the
early K-dates, but is actually scattered throughout the whole K-date
production. Later later K-dates seldom have the "hump" though and all
G-dates and 1936's do not. In mid 1937 the "hump" became a standard
production proceedure and it is found on all Mausers after this. The 1937
S/42 is a neat year with lots of variations -- one of them is the strawed
guns with a hump -- as all strawed 1937's did not have the hump until the
very last ones -- a transition gun -- and all the all blued 1937 S/42's have
the hump. Hope this answeres your question. If not, write me back and I'll
try to help you out. -- Bill Munis "

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 02-16-2003, 02:53 PM

This is what I have observed about the Mauser "hump". There are no measurements other than by eyeball and magnifier here, and I have not done any practical experiments, but this may be a useful path of inquiry:

The thickened back of the early Mauser frame changes the geometry of the workings of the toggle. The toggle stop meets the frame back a mm or so sooner than the original guns, thus the toggle does not open quite so far and the breechblock does not go quite as far back.

You will observe that the "hump" is created when the lower part of the rear of the frame is returned to its original dimension, and thus its original position relative to the toggle stop.

--Dwight

barr · 02-17-2003, 03:53 PM

I wish to thank all of you for the information on the mark, and on the Mauser hump. All of it is very interesting.
One last thing, what would be a couple of good books on the luger to start with? I've heard that 'Lugers at Random' is supposedly good. Anyone have a suggestion or two?
Again I would appreciate your input.
Thanks, barr.

Thor · 02-17-2003, 06:02 PM

Lugers at Random (LAR) is a good overall book but it would not have answered the "S" block question that well. If you have a special interest in WWI or WWII or the era between WWI and WWII, then I sugguest Jan Stills books (if you can find them as they are currently out of print. They have more info on proof marks, production blocks etc than the eariler LAR book. I would say if you got all three of Stills book and Kenyons LAR book, you have a very good start to a good Luger library! This will make your Luger experience a more enjoyable one, especially if you want to collect "as issued" Lugers.

Big Norm · 02-18-2003, 12:26 AM

Barr,
Thors recommedations are good. Personally, I think that you have to have both Stills and Kenyons books. The other day I was looking up information regarding a 1906 commercial navy Luger and it was not mentioned in Stills book but was in Kenyons book. Another book is John Walters book "The Luger Book". It is hard to figure out how to use at first. But once you get the hang of it, it has a wealth of information in it. It is often found on Ebay and other auctions. But for a first book, I would get one of Stills books, depending on the era of Lugers that you are interested in. But they are expensive and getting hard to find.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 02-18-2003, 12:35 AM

Barr,
Thors recommedations are good. Personally, I think that you have to have both Stills and Kenyons books. The other day I was looking up information regarding a 1906 commercial navy Luger and it was not mentioned in Stills book but was in Kenyons book. Another book is John Walters book "The Luger Book". It is hard to figure out how to use at first. But once you get the hang of it, it has a wealth of information in it. It is often found on Ebay and other auctions. But for a first book, I would get one of Stills books, depending on the era of Lugers that you are interested in. But they are expensive and getting hard to find.
Big Norm

barr · 02-18-2003, 03:17 PM

Ok guys, thanks again!

I will have to go book hunting and see what I can find and afford. Appreciate all the good advice.
Thanks again, barr.

02-15-2003, 08:29 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	looks like it was made in the "s" block to me! from the pics I saw of your gun, the FRAME was made by MAuser as evidenced by the "P.08" marking on the left frame flat area and the "Mauser Frame Bump". I believe it was originally a part of a 1941 manufactured "byf 41" Mauser Luger. All Artillery Lugers, as issued, would have strawed parts and with the DWM toggle it should have a DWM frame. It looks to me that the entire Lugers has been salt blued, even the graduated flat blade on the rear sight. This part should be polished in the white with rust bluing down in the numbers and graduated line markings if original. Should have fire blued grips screws, sear spring, toggle pins. Strawed trigger, ejector, magazine release button, take down lever. Wood magazine bottom (nickel or tin body), wood grips. See Erfurt example. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-16-2003, 08:25 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Last weekend at a local show, I picked up a 1914 Erfurt LPO8. Unfortunately nickel plated with a couple of mismatched small parts (I've already sold it as a shooter). But what was interesting, is that in addition to the crown/L normal inspector's stamp on the front of the trigger guard, it was stamped with a large "flowing W" on the very top of the front grip strap where it meets the trigger guard and directly below the mag release button. Does anyone know for sure what this indicates? If I were to guess, I might call this a Wruttenberg state "acceptance". Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

02-16-2003, 01:29 PM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Dear barr: exactly what we are here for, to help explain! Lugers were made in blocks, others have expained this better than me. They started out with #1 then after 99, it went to 100, then to 9999, then to 1a, then all the way to 9999a, then to 2b, and so on! They didnt always start over so you need to see what blocks of production were done in each year. Jan Still's books document this production for each year. A good idea is to buy books of research results. You will enjoy this as much as buying Lugers and it makes the experience more enjoyable if you know what you are buying before you get it. Please continue to ask any questions! We are hear to help! I follow mine advice and ask questions when I cant get info out of a book. AND....not all books are 100% correct and it is good to cross reference the material. Good luck and let us know if we can help you! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-16-2003, 01:53 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	What is a MAUSER BUMP? Can anyone explain to me the real thinking Mauser had when they produced their early Lugers with the No Mauser hump and then some were intermixed with the Mauser hump and finally all were produced with no Mauser hump or bump? The early MauserÃ¢??s had mixed humps and no humps, but for instance, the G dates seem NOT to be humped, but they all have a thickened back where the hump is, to better contain the rear axle pin during the rearward most movement of the receiver forks. The humped Mauser simply had some of the thickened rear frame REMOVED to form the hump. I have no pictures of the Hump but it is formed at the very rear back of the frame above the lanyard loop. The back of the frame on DWM's is straight up vertical. Some K-dates, G-dates and 1936-S/42 MauserÃ¢??s are also straight up or vertical. The Hump causes the rear of the frame to not be vertical, it has a curved appearance to it. You can easily see it from the side. The Mauser Military Lugers are the only ones that have the HUMP, I think! It is interesting Mauser elected to remove that section of metal to return the frame length to the same as a DWM Luger! I believe quoted from Ted, but not positive, here is a picture of the Mauser bump: __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-17-2003, 06:02 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Lugers at Random (LAR) is a good overall book but it would not have answered the "S" block question that well. If you have a special interest in WWI or WWII or the era between WWI and WWII, then I sugguest Jan Stills books (if you can find them as they are currently out of print. They have more info on proof marks, production blocks etc than the eariler LAR book. I would say if you got all three of Stills book and Kenyons LAR book, you have a very good start to a good Luger library! This will make your Luger experience a more enjoyable one, especially if you want to collect "as issued" Lugers. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-15-2003, 08:08 PM	#1
barr User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Frame mark on artillery luger. On my 1917 DWM artillery Luger, the frame and some of the parts associated with the frame are a different sn. than the barrel and action. The frame looks to be newer or at least is in better shape, in that it retains almost 98% of its bluing. Also the trigger is blued to match the frame and has the same sn. There is a mark on the front of the frame just below the serial no. The following is the address for the image of the mark: Anyone care to speculate on what it signifies? Is there any way to determine who and where the frame was made? Other than the serial no. 9006, and this mark, there are no other marks on the frame. I am hoping that perhaps this mark would be a makers mark. Would appreciate any help in this area, thanks, barr.

02-16-2003, 12:43 PM	#4
barr User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Thor, I figured the frame was probably made later that the barrel assembly. What is the 'Mauser Bump', that you refer to? Also, what do refer to by the 's block'? Hate to sound like a newbie, but that's what I am, but would like to know more about these guns. Thanks again, barr.

02-16-2003, 02:40 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is some great info. Luger Forum member, Bill Munis, sent me awhile ago about the Mauser humps : " Hi Pete, The "Mauser Bumb" -- I call it the mauser hump -- is usually found on the early K-dates, but is actually scattered throughout the whole K-date production. Later later K-dates seldom have the "hump" though and all G-dates and 1936's do not. In mid 1937 the "hump" became a standard production proceedure and it is found on all Mausers after this. The 1937 S/42 is a neat year with lots of variations -- one of them is the strawed guns with a hump -- as all strawed 1937's did not have the hump until the very last ones -- a transition gun -- and all the all blued 1937 S/42's have the hump. Hope this answeres your question. If not, write me back and I'll try to help you out. -- Bill Munis " Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-16-2003, 02:53 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	This is what I have observed about the Mauser "hump". There are no measurements other than by eyeball and magnifier here, and I have not done any practical experiments, but this may be a useful path of inquiry: The thickened back of the early Mauser frame changes the geometry of the workings of the toggle. The toggle stop meets the frame back a mm or so sooner than the original guns, thus the toggle does not open quite so far and the breechblock does not go quite as far back. You will observe that the "hump" is created when the lower part of the rear of the frame is returned to its original dimension, and thus its original position relative to the toggle stop. --Dwight

02-17-2003, 03:53 PM	#9
barr User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I wish to thank all of you for the information on the mark, and on the Mauser hump. All of it is very interesting. One last thing, what would be a couple of good books on the luger to start with? I've heard that 'Lugers at Random' is supposedly good. Anyone have a suggestion or two? Again I would appreciate your input. Thanks, barr.

02-18-2003, 12:26 AM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Barr, Thors recommedations are good. Personally, I think that you have to have both Stills and Kenyons books. The other day I was looking up information regarding a 1906 commercial navy Luger and it was not mentioned in Stills book but was in Kenyons book. Another book is John Walters book "The Luger Book". It is hard to figure out how to use at first. But once you get the hang of it, it has a wealth of information in it. It is often found on Ebay and other auctions. But for a first book, I would get one of Stills books, depending on the era of Lugers that you are interested in. But they are expensive and getting hard to find. Big Norm

02-18-2003, 12:35 AM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Barr, Thors recommedations are good. Personally, I think that you have to have both Stills and Kenyons books. The other day I was looking up information regarding a 1906 commercial navy Luger and it was not mentioned in Stills book but was in Kenyons book. Another book is John Walters book "The Luger Book". It is hard to figure out how to use at first. But once you get the hang of it, it has a wealth of information in it. It is often found on Ebay and other auctions. But for a first book, I would get one of Stills books, depending on the era of Lugers that you are interested in. But they are expensive and getting hard to find. Big Norm

02-18-2003, 03:17 PM	#13
barr User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok guys, thanks again! I will have to go book hunting and see what I can find and afford. Appreciate all the good advice. Thanks again, barr.