Ever hear of these?

[Roadkill]

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/pistole08.html

1913 wurde noch eine Version der P 08 mit langem Lauf (203 mm) bei der Artillerie und den Festungsbesatzungen eingef�¼hrt.

Been reading around again, "in 1913 there was another version of the P08 with a long barrel (203mm) provided to the artillery and to the troops occupying fortresses."

Ever seen a "fortress" marked P08?

This was in the same article. No wonder they don't work if you swap/replace parts

F�¼r die Herstellung einer P 08 waren 778 unterschiedliche Arbeitsg�¤nge erforderlich, davon 642 maschinell und die restlichen per Hand.

"For the production of one P08 778 separate work functions were required, 642 by machine, the rest by hand"

RK

[Herb]

RK, I haven't personally seen one but Jeff Noll, in his book 'The Imperial German Regimental Marking' makes mention of several of them, example; F.M.G.A.=Festungs Maschinengewehr Abteilung (Fortress Machinegun Detachment) so I have to say that they do exist.

[Doubs]

Interesting. The normal Artillery is considered to have an 8 inch barrel which, if multiplied by 25.4 mm per inch comes out to 203.2 mm. What, if anything, differentiates the "normal" Artillery from the "Fortress" Artillery Luger? If a special long barrel Luger was made, it would be interesting to know about. Anyone know for sure?

[Frank]

I believe the correct length of an "Artillery or Lange" barrel is 200mm or 7.874 inches, thus rounded to 8 inches. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[Thor]

Frank, I think you are right on, we are getting the sequence messed up here. The Germans didnt design around the inch system, but the metric system, Barrels were made in 100mm, 150mm (navy) and 200 (Artillery), the rough lengths in English units are just rounded off some. I never have been clear on just what the 1920 commercial 7.65 mm barrels were 95mm, as I remember, they varied from 3 & 5/8" all the way up to 4" but the ones I have seen are mostly 3 & 3/4" which probably were 95 mm barrels. Were the Carbine models actually 300 mm barrels? All this converting is giving ol Thor a hammer headache!!! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

[Doubs]

Fellows, yesterday's message wasn't well thought out and I assure you that I'm "metric literate". My first thought upon reading RK's message was "Gosh... an Artillery varient that I'm not familiar with. How did that happen?" I knew that the standard Artillery barrel was 200mm as Frank has correctly pointed out. My own Artillery Lugers measure exactly that from closed breech face to muzzle.

After reading RK's post again, I've reached the conclusion that the author of the article he quoted did exactly as I did and multiplied 8 inches by 25.4mm and ASSUMED that 203mm was correct for the Artillery barrels. Note that he says the guns were issued to Fortress and Artillery troops. *IF* I had thought about it for a minute, I'd have realized what he had done. I'm embarrassed to have not realized that immediately.

The Treaty of Versailles limited pistols to a bullet no larger than 8mm and a barrel length not to exceed 100mm. Datig, on page 129 of his book, correctly gives 98mm as the length of barrel the Germans decided to manufacture for the Luger but incorrectly gives that as 3 5/8 inches. It should be 3 7/8 inches. (My own 1920 "commercial" Erfurt .30 barrel is exactly 98mm in length.)

Walker (Red-faced in GA)

[Thor]

Doubs, I have read about 3 & 5/8" barreled Lugers and I have asked around and some say yes, but all the ones I have seen are around 3 & 7/8". Interesting for sure! I have never seen a barrel that measured the shorter number. I found this thread interesting for sure!

[Roadkill]

Doubs, the article was in German so inches were never a factor. Its at the bottom of the second paragraph on the link at top of post. Also at the bottom of the page they have the stats on the P08, the barrel length is 103mm. Maybe this article was in English first or they are adding 3mm in measurements somewhere. Since I started this I'll go back and see who wrote it. They have a picture of a nice VOPO so must be recent. Great bullets.

RK

[Doubs]

Hi RK,

The VOPO Luger IS a nice-looking example for sure.

How, exactly, the author has managed to "add" 3mm in length to the 100mm and 200mm barrels is unknown to me. Even with my limited knowledge of the German language, I believe it's obvious that he's speaking of the Artillery model we know as produced by DWM and Erfurt during WW1 and not a "special" version with a 3mm longer barrel. While called an "Artillery" model, it was issued in large numbers to Machinegun units as well. That some were issued to units garrisoning stationary defensive positions - forts - isn't surprising.

Your theory that the article may have been in English first makes sense. In any event, if there's a long barreled Luger out there with an extra 3mm of barrel length, I'd like to know about it. I seriously doubt that there is but I've been wrong before. Yesterday, for one example! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

[Roadkill]

To my limited knowledge the stellar books on Lugers were all in English origonally. And the info is not documented/presented in any way as an authoritative publication or tech manual. The info is probably a summation of English books for a pretty good web site, hence the differences in measurements. Words are lots of times flexible in translation, numbers aren't. There is also a forum I signed up on. I like reading the German info, sometimes something new pops up from a different venue. I had never heard of a Fortress Luger.


RK

[Roadkill]

This fits into the history of the Luger, well, it is the history of the Luger,that in WWI and most likely WWII there was no other country so prolific in the distribution of handguns. Seems turned around that the US with its history of handguns would not have distributed them as much as Germany did. Or maybe I've got a classic case of good old US myopia and can't see but one point of view. The Webley family was well experienced, the Beretta & Rubys acceptable, 1911s & six shooters great guns. Wonder why?

RK

[Navy]

Folks,

"Fortress" Lugers are Lugers marked as being issued to "Fortress" troops. They are not a separate type of Luger, just a Luger with different unit markings. Fortress Troops were what we in the US Army would classify as HQ Command soldiers assigned to a garrison proper vice being assigned to a unit which was tennant at the garrison.

Many of the fortress units were Minenwurfer and machine gun detachments, as well as the usual assortment of cooks, clerks, etc.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[Lugerdoc]

I agree with the consensus that the "Fortress" marked LPO8s are the normal 200x9mm type. I do have both 95 (3&5/8th") and 98 (3&7/8ths") x 7.65mm barrels in stock. Most or numbered and Crown over N proofed. Why the 2 different barrel lengths for 20 commericals, I have no ideal. I'd appreciate knowledgable input.

[Roadkill]

Another barrel length ?

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...pistolen-R.htm

Die Standardpistole der Wehrmacht, die Pistole 08
(P. 08), wurde seit 1908 in Massenfertigung
hergestellt. Sie war die Nachfolgewaffe der P. 04 und Standardwaffe bei der kaiserlichen Armee. Die bei den DWM gefertigte Pistole vom Kaliber 9
mm hatte den weltbekannten Kniegelenks-VerschluÃ??, war 221 mm lang, hatte einen 102 mm langen Lauf und wog 0,87 kg.


The standard pistol of the Wehrmacht, the P08, had been mass produced since 1908. It was the successor to the P04 and the standard arm of the Imperial army. Those finished pistols in caliber 9mm had the world reknown toggle action, were 221 mm long, had a 102mm barrel and weighed .87 Kg.

RK

[wterrell]

RK, does the site have an English language version? I read German very well, it's just that I don't understand a word of it.