Loading tool question....

Bart · 12-04-2002, 07:05 PM

I came across a loading tool with byf41 inscribed on it, and am wondering if it is common for these tools to have been inscribed. Or, perhaps, is this a "knock-off? It looks newly blued and like it has never been used. Any thoughts anyone can share?
Thanks,
Bart <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Frank · 12-04-2002, 09:11 PM

Hi Bart, this has been kicked around before. I believe the consensus of opinion is, it's a modern reproduction that someone thought would bring big bucks by adding the byf41. Instead, it usually brings about $15 or so.

They are functional, but not original!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

MauserLugers · 12-04-2002, 10:38 PM

Hi,
A good example of what is showing up in the collecting field -- total crap! You have faked Lugers, faked holsters, faked magazines, and faked tools. And we wonder why our "hobby" is dwendling in popularity and numbers? Everything seems to be about money and getting a sale and to hell with return customers as the trend is to stick them and if they don't know the difference, tough luck. This faked crap is selling so somebody is buying it and it isn't the advanced collectors, so good luck new collectors and when you get about 10 years of experience under your belts and see all the junk that you acquired as original stuff I'm sure you will think you are in a real nightmare! And while I am bitching about stuff it is amazing to me that so many middle of the road collectors are falling for "it's possible" junk and playing "what if" to make incorrect stuff correct in their eyes, whether it be grips or magazines or part numbers. This contributes to the fakes and reproduction stuff as it just about makes anything possible which isn't so. What the hell, buy the fakes and in about 15 years hardly anyone will be around that knows the difference anyway.

Bart · 12-04-2002, 11:03 PM

Hi Frank...thanks for the reply in regard to your thoughts on the "concensus of opinions". I knew I didn't find a collectable gem, but I must have missed previous discussions about these reproductions and the byf markings inscribed in them. I happened to have been looking for a useable loading tool to accompany my shooter and I to the range & field. In this case, I was glad to pay the $10.00 asking price, cuz all I want to do is load the magazine without ripping up my fingers (darn magazine springs are strong).

So thanks for the response, I appreciate it. So to, Mausers comments regarding "fakes". However, in this isolated case, I was glad to have found it instead of having to take a "collectable" piece to the range and out in the field.

BTW, what does an original loading tool sell for these days? Anyone?

Bart <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Pete Ebbink · 12-06-2002, 12:22 PM

Hello Bart,

There is a pretty good discussion that happened in this Section of the Forum back in August...

You might want to take a read :

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...c&f=6&t=000033

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Bart · 12-06-2002, 09:43 PM

Thanks for the tip on the past discussion Wm. It was very interesting. And simply shores up what I found and purchased. A "fake" but a welcome addition to my shooting supplies none the less. Ten dollars to save my thumb was money well spent.

JimD · 12-07-2002, 08:59 PM

I bought one, too and figured it was a repro but at $10 bucks I wanted to see what it looked like.

So, where will we draw the line to allow novice collectors into our hobby? Will we require them to become advanced collectors through study of books or our collections that they can touch but not have? Will we give them a battery of tests after ten years so they may participate when they show they are able to competently disern fakes just so these rookies aren't a burden to us as they assist in driving up prices?

It bugs me, too that people try to pass junk off as the real thing. That's why I stopped collecting WWII German stuff a few years ago. But don't put the blame on the new guy who's trying his best and just doesn't know the ropes yet. We were all new at one time.

And I seriously doubt that anyone here refrained from participating in this, or any hobby, until they were experts out of consideration of the more knowledgable collectors already there.

Pete Ebbink · 12-08-2002, 05:14 PM

Here is some recent pricing on Bob Simpson's luger room web site :

http://www.simpsonltd.com/

Original Luger take down tool (E/63 & E/655 proofed) $45.00

Original Luger take down tool (E/135 proofed) $125.00

Original Luger take down tool (E/2 proofed) $150.00

Original Luger take down tool (Imperial proofed) $85.00

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Steve Richards · 12-10-2002, 03:02 AM

Reproductions have their place. As long as they are sold for what they are there is nothing wrong and no one is defrauded. I have several unmarked loading tools that are reporductions and am glad to have them to use. Buying reproduction parts to go with a "shooter grade" gun is a good way to get started. Plus you have a gun that you can shoot withour worrying about it loosing value unless it is abused. Not everyone wants a mint condition gun.

Dwight Gruber · 12-10-2002, 04:20 AM

I would like to suggest that purchasing known fakes for whatever reason simply fuels the market demand. If people recognized fakes and refused to buy them, it would no longer be profitable to produce them.

--Dwight

lugerholsterrepair · 12-10-2002, 12:48 PM

Dwight, if crickets had machine guns, birds wouldn't eat them. There will always be those among us who don't know and don't care. It's like poverty. Nothing will stamp it out. Not even money. Simply factor it into the equation and go on. Jerry Burney

Vlim · 12-10-2002, 05:41 PM

Hi,

I just bought one of these byf41 repro tools last week. After shooting the M11 at the range a couple of times, I figured I really needed a loading tool, or at least my thumb thought so [img]smile.gif[/img]

Looked around at some auctions and saw the tools go for prices above $35....So I bought a BYF41 repro for $19.95. If anyone comes across a decently marked Dutch loading tool, I'm always interested [img]wink.gif[/img]

Gerben
Si Vic Pacem, Para Bellum

MauserLugers · 12-10-2002, 10:58 PM

Hi,
You guys are right. Why pay $20 for a blank real tool when you can buy a fake for $10 to $20? The money you save can buy you ...... ?? ... another tool perhaps. But wait, you might want to put an order in for an O:37, B/90, W/154, or E/135 next, or a E/B, or E/L police tool to the guys faking them. Better yet, have him make you a matching numbered tool for that Weimar Luger or Mauser Police Luger. I'm sure down the road when you get rid of these "special order tools" that the new owner will represent them as "reproductions" also, and the new buyer will be able to tell the real examples from these! Lets be honest here, we all know this is going to happen down the road, so why pretend it won't, and why pretend it isn't going to hurt someone? These are no good to anyone in my opinion and for the cost of a blank real tool you're not saving hardly anything, but you are helping to spread fakes. Just my opinion.

Bart · 12-10-2002, 11:22 PM

Well Mr. Mauserluger, there must be quite a few original loading tools in Montana at, what did you say, "$20.00"?? I would venture to say, that those among us with shooters, who actually "shoot" our shooters, and use a loading tool with some frequency in the field and at the range, would pay $20.00 in a heartbeat for an original tool. However, I haven't been able to find one under $50.00, so please direct me to one at $20.00 and I promise on my black labs grave, that I will toss my $10.00 tool in the nearest river. Scouts Honor!

MauserLugers · 12-10-2002, 11:36 PM

Well Mr. Bart,
Go to www.simpsonltd.com just like Pete posted earlier, go to accessories and #3 -- Blank original tools $20 --- Toss it far out into the river and don't curse your black labs grave or your scouts honor!

lugerholsterrepair · 12-11-2002, 01:02 AM

Bart, Now that you have found a $20.00 tool, plus $5.00 shipping take a dremel tool and grind out the offending fakery instead of throwing a perfectly good tool into the river. It will still be good for loading etc. Jerry Burney

Lugerdoc · 12-11-2002, 09:36 AM

Here's a good substute that should even satisfy even the purist: How about some unmarked E.German made tools with the grooves on the part that you press down on @$15 each or 2 for $25 postpaid. You can stamp them with whatever proof you like and they will never be mistaken for originals. [email protected]

Bart · 12-11-2002, 06:47 PM

Dear Mr. MauserLuger, you have opened my eyes and directed me to an original tool for $20.00 (plus $5.95 S&H which is closer to $30, than $20 but who am I to split hairs). Being a man of my word, upon reciept of the original, this tool goes in the drink. Sorry Jerry, although I think your idea is a better one, I made a solemn vow...this fake must go or it will take on a life of it's own!

BTW Mr.ML, what are your thoughts on cubic zirconia's? Nevermind, I guess that's off topic.

Steve Richards · 12-12-2002, 02:24 AM

A couple of weeks ago, I bought two loading tools from AIMCO in Texas. They are blued steel and very clearly stamped "100 Years American Eagle" on one side and "AIMCO, Inc Houston, Texas" on the other side. There is no way to pass them off for anything else without some grinding and restamping. They were $27.00 with S&H for the pair. For someone just wanting a tool to use they are an option without encouraging fakes.

MauserLugers · 12-12-2002, 11:25 AM

Dear Bart,
I do not know what part of the country you live in, but if you go to any major gun shows you can always ask Mr. Simpson to bring the tools to the show and save the shipping charges. Just a suggestion to keep your tool cost down.

Also, for your information, some of us in Montana do shoot Lugers on a regular basis too. My cousin just got his 3rd mountain lion with his Luger, a byf 41. A little different than shooting paper. Shooting Lugers and having shooters is part of the Luger hobby. Every collector has one.

12-04-2002, 07:05 PM	#1
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Loading tool question.... I came across a loading tool with byf41 inscribed on it, and am wondering if it is common for these tools to have been inscribed. Or, perhaps, is this a "knock-off? It looks newly blued and like it has never been used. Any thoughts anyone can share? Thanks, Bart <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

12-07-2002, 08:59 PM	#7
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	I bought one, too and figured it was a repro but at $10 bucks I wanted to see what it looked like. So, where will we draw the line to allow novice collectors into our hobby? Will we require them to become advanced collectors through study of books or our collections that they can touch but not have? Will we give them a battery of tests after ten years so they may participate when they show they are able to competently disern fakes just so these rookies aren't a burden to us as they assist in driving up prices? It bugs me, too that people try to pass junk off as the real thing. That's why I stopped collecting WWII German stuff a few years ago. But don't put the blame on the new guy who's trying his best and just doesn't know the ropes yet. We were all new at one time. And I seriously doubt that anyone here refrained from participating in this, or any hobby, until they were experts out of consideration of the more knowledgable collectors already there. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

12-10-2002, 12:48 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Dwight, if crickets had machine guns, birds wouldn't eat them. There will always be those among us who don't know and don't care. It's like poverty. Nothing will stamp it out. Not even money. Simply factor it into the equation and go on. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-11-2002, 01:02 AM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Bart, Now that you have found a $20.00 tool, plus $5.00 shipping take a dremel tool and grind out the offending fakery instead of throwing a perfectly good tool into the river. It will still be good for loading etc. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-11-2002, 09:36 AM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Here's a good substute that should even satisfy even the purist: How about some unmarked E.German made tools with the grooves on the part that you press down on @$15 each or 2 for $25 postpaid. You can stamp them with whatever proof you like and they will never be mistaken for originals. [email protected] __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

12-04-2002, 09:11 PM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Bart, this has been kicked around before. I believe the consensus of opinion is, it's a modern reproduction that someone thought would bring big bucks by adding the byf41. Instead, it usually brings about $15 or so. They are functional, but not original! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

12-04-2002, 10:38 PM	#3
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, A good example of what is showing up in the collecting field -- total crap! You have faked Lugers, faked holsters, faked magazines, and faked tools. And we wonder why our "hobby" is dwendling in popularity and numbers? Everything seems to be about money and getting a sale and to hell with return customers as the trend is to stick them and if they don't know the difference, tough luck. This faked crap is selling so somebody is buying it and it isn't the advanced collectors, so good luck new collectors and when you get about 10 years of experience under your belts and see all the junk that you acquired as original stuff I'm sure you will think you are in a real nightmare! And while I am bitching about stuff it is amazing to me that so many middle of the road collectors are falling for "it's possible" junk and playing "what if" to make incorrect stuff correct in their eyes, whether it be grips or magazines or part numbers. This contributes to the fakes and reproduction stuff as it just about makes anything possible which isn't so. What the hell, buy the fakes and in about 15 years hardly anyone will be around that knows the difference anyway.

12-04-2002, 11:03 PM	#4
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Frank...thanks for the reply in regard to your thoughts on the "concensus of opinions". I knew I didn't find a collectable gem, but I must have missed previous discussions about these reproductions and the byf markings inscribed in them. I happened to have been looking for a useable loading tool to accompany my shooter and I to the range & field. In this case, I was glad to pay the $10.00 asking price, cuz all I want to do is load the magazine without ripping up my fingers (darn magazine springs are strong). So thanks for the response, I appreciate it. So to, Mausers comments regarding "fakes". However, in this isolated case, I was glad to have found it instead of having to take a "collectable" piece to the range and out in the field. BTW, what does an original loading tool sell for these days? Anyone? Bart <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

12-06-2002, 12:22 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Bart, There is a pretty good discussion that happened in this Section of the Forum back in August... You might want to take a read : http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...c&f=6&t=000033 Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

12-06-2002, 09:43 PM	#6
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the tip on the past discussion Wm. It was very interesting. And simply shores up what I found and purchased. A "fake" but a welcome addition to my shooting supplies none the less. Ten dollars to save my thumb was money well spent.

12-08-2002, 05:14 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is some recent pricing on Bob Simpson's luger room web site : http://www.simpsonltd.com/ Original Luger take down tool (E/63 & E/655 proofed) $45.00 Original Luger take down tool (E/135 proofed) $125.00 Original Luger take down tool (E/2 proofed) $150.00 Original Luger take down tool (Imperial proofed) $85.00 Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

12-10-2002, 03:02 AM	#9
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Reproductions have their place. As long as they are sold for what they are there is nothing wrong and no one is defrauded. I have several unmarked loading tools that are reporductions and am glad to have them to use. Buying reproduction parts to go with a "shooter grade" gun is a good way to get started. Plus you have a gun that you can shoot withour worrying about it loosing value unless it is abused. Not everyone wants a mint condition gun.

12-10-2002, 04:20 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	I would like to suggest that purchasing known fakes for whatever reason simply fuels the market demand. If people recognized fakes and refused to buy them, it would no longer be profitable to produce them. --Dwight

12-10-2002, 05:41 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, I just bought one of these byf41 repro tools last week. After shooting the M11 at the range a couple of times, I figured I really needed a loading tool, or at least my thumb thought so [img]smile.gif[/img] Looked around at some auctions and saw the tools go for prices above $35....So I bought a BYF41 repro for $19.95. If anyone comes across a decently marked Dutch loading tool, I'm always interested [img]wink.gif[/img] Gerben Si Vic Pacem, Para Bellum

12-10-2002, 10:58 PM	#13
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, You guys are right. Why pay $20 for a blank real tool when you can buy a fake for $10 to $20? The money you save can buy you ...... ?? ... another tool perhaps. But wait, you might want to put an order in for an O:37, B/90, W/154, or E/135 next, or a E/B, or E/L police tool to the guys faking them. Better yet, have him make you a matching numbered tool for that Weimar Luger or Mauser Police Luger. I'm sure down the road when you get rid of these "special order tools" that the new owner will represent them as "reproductions" also, and the new buyer will be able to tell the real examples from these! Lets be honest here, we all know this is going to happen down the road, so why pretend it won't, and why pretend it isn't going to hurt someone? These are no good to anyone in my opinion and for the cost of a blank real tool you're not saving hardly anything, but you are helping to spread fakes. Just my opinion.

12-10-2002, 11:22 PM	#14
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well Mr. Mauserluger, there must be quite a few original loading tools in Montana at, what did you say, "$20.00"?? I would venture to say, that those among us with shooters, who actually "shoot" our shooters, and use a loading tool with some frequency in the field and at the range, would pay $20.00 in a heartbeat for an original tool. However, I haven't been able to find one under $50.00, so please direct me to one at $20.00 and I promise on my black labs grave, that I will toss my $10.00 tool in the nearest river. Scouts Honor!

12-10-2002, 11:36 PM	#15
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Well Mr. Bart, Go to www.simpsonltd.com just like Pete posted earlier, go to accessories and #3 -- Blank original tools $20 --- Toss it far out into the river and don't curse your black labs grave or your scouts honor!

12-11-2002, 06:47 PM	#18
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Mr. MauserLuger, you have opened my eyes and directed me to an original tool for $20.00 (plus $5.95 S&H which is closer to $30, than $20 but who am I to split hairs). Being a man of my word, upon reciept of the original, this tool goes in the drink. Sorry Jerry, although I think your idea is a better one, I made a solemn vow...this fake must go or it will take on a life of it's own! BTW Mr.ML, what are your thoughts on cubic zirconia's? Nevermind, I guess that's off topic.

12-12-2002, 02:24 AM	#19
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A couple of weeks ago, I bought two loading tools from AIMCO in Texas. They are blued steel and very clearly stamped "100 Years American Eagle" on one side and "AIMCO, Inc Houston, Texas" on the other side. There is no way to pass them off for anything else without some grinding and restamping. They were $27.00 with S&H for the pair. For someone just wanting a tool to use they are an option without encouraging fakes.

12-12-2002, 11:25 AM	#20
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Dear Bart, I do not know what part of the country you live in, but if you go to any major gun shows you can always ask Mr. Simpson to bring the tools to the show and save the shipping charges. Just a suggestion to keep your tool cost down. Also, for your information, some of us in Montana do shoot Lugers on a regular basis too. My cousin just got his 3rd mountain lion with his Luger, a byf 41. A little different than shooting paper. Shooting Lugers and having shooters is part of the Luger hobby. Every collector has one.