Buy Books, Read and Study

Navy · 08-11-2002, 02:54 PM

All,

It has become apparent to me that there are several members and contributors (and you know who you are so don't bother wasting time with feeble excuses) who cause forum discord by asking questions and then refuting answers they receive from some internationally known experts who are or used to be in this group. A quick run through of some of the questions indicates that in several instances, the questioner had not read or was not aware of authoritative published material that covered the topic in detail. This is a basic failure to do one's homework.

Folks, if you are going to play in this pool, you need to know how to swim pretty well-pardon the metaphor.

Let me be direct. Before anyone buys their second Luger-if they are seriously intending to be a collector-they should have a copy of every book written about Lugers in the English language.

That means 2 Kenyons, Davis, Costanzo, Bobba, 6 of Still, 3 Datig (or is it 4?)Jones, 2 Reese, 3 Walters,...well, you get the point.

You simply have to know what you are buying and there is no time-efficient way to learn it all first hand. Soooo, instead, buy the books, read and study.

After you have read them all cover to cover, made notes on the inconsistencies between one author and another or in a single author's work, and have done some field research, then it is appropriate to challenge the author's authority.

I am by no means saying everything in all of the books is absolute gospel, but its pretty damn close, and most of the errors of fact in these works, such as the infamous Costanzo mistake on the meaning of the S.D. property mark, are well known to the collecting fraternity.

So, before you buy more Lugers, buy the opportunity to acquire more Luger knowledge first. You will not regret it. And you will not appear such a neophyte in public venues such as the forum. Believe me, $800-1000 spent on books will save you tens of thousands over time.

My zwei pfennigs.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Herb · 08-11-2002, 04:10 PM

Tom, I echo what you said, get every reference you can find and study them. Yes there are inconsistancies between one author and another, and I have found this forum an excellent means to try to sort these out. My problem is trying to remember everything I have read, about the best I can do is remember where I found it and then try to do it again. I need some education on you comment about the S.D. strap marking, what does it mean? When I was collecting militaria a few years back S.D. on armbands did mean Sicherheitsdienst, or security office (Bureau) I must have missed something somewhere.

Jimbo · 08-11-2002, 06:12 PM

Hi Tom A and Herb,

I am only interested in Mauser Lugers and Krieghoffs. I own Still's "Third Reich Lugers" and Kenyon's "Lugers at Random". What other books do I need.

Thank you for the book recommendations.

Jimbo

Garfield · 08-11-2002, 06:28 PM

Jimbo:

Krieghoff Parabellum by Randall Gibson for one.

drbuster · 08-11-2002, 06:29 PM

Dear Tom A. Absolutely agree, read read all you can. Observe, be humble, there's always more to,learn. "Experts" just have more experienced "opinions". By the way, could you inform me about Costanza's S.D. error, I missed that one (always willing to learn). [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Edward Tinker · 08-11-2002, 06:47 PM

Even if only interested in certain eras of Lugers, you may very well come across a wonderful buy and wish you knew more.

So I am slowly buying all the books that I can on the diversified Luger.

After all knowledge is power.

Herb · 08-11-2002, 07:09 PM

Ed, get empowered!! Some other worth while ones are Luger Variations by Harry E. Jones, The Luger Story by John Walter, The Luger Book by John Walter, and The Luger Pistol by Datig. By the way, the recommendation for you to get Krieghoff Parabellum by Gibson is a good one, that is an excellent reference on Krieghoffs, chock full of really great close up photos of Kriegs, get that one first as they are getting hard to find.

Navy · 08-11-2002, 07:33 PM

In Costanzo's magnificent work, and yes, I am away from home station on contractor site, so I can't give you page and figure number, but he cites grip strap markings SD with Roman numerals I -VI followed by arabic numerals as being issued by the various dAmts of the Sicherheits Dienst or Heidrich's boys.

Works great as an operating hypothesis and was (and still is) widely believed to be fact.

T'ain't so.

Goertz in his wonderful work on German markings broke the code on these; they are Schupo Duesseldorf, Dusseldorf Municipal police. The Roman numeral corresponds to the administrative district and the arabic numeral is the rack number. To back up his hypothesis, he has copies of Prussian Police documents prescribing the marking and, coincidentally, all known specemins have the Police safety. To further debunk the Sicherheits Dienst theory, there are simply too many of these guns around with numbers that are too high for the size of the relatively short-lived and small S.D.

Oh, in addition to reading and studying Luger books, it helps a GREAT deal if one studies the history, politics, geography and police jurisdictional aspects of Germany. By doing that you can avoid thinking that Potsdam is in Thuringia as apparently some one did some time ago.

My Zwei pfennigs,

Tom A.

Pete Ebbink · 08-11-2002, 09:56 PM

Hello Tom A,

I, too, absolutely agree with all you say.

Being one of the neophytes and having purchased over 29 various luger books; I know there is always room for improvement and more study.

I do realize the wide range of luger collectors here on the Forum.

I would think this "pool" has both a shallow end for beginners and the deep end for the experts. And length enough for guys that just want to take laps on the surface.

At some point in time a few years back, even the experts were just starting out and probably bought a "bad" luger now and then.

I am also old enough to realize that not every thing in life if absolutely "black and white". Once in a great while even an expert can be incorrect.

Take the fact of 1910 Erfurts. When one of the first ones surfaced, an expert said this could not possibly be a real Erfurt luger. A bit later the expert saw that 1910 Erfurt in person and did not only authenticate it but even offered a few big bucks to buy it. Now I understand that at least two 1910's are thought to be authentic by the experts.

Regards,

Pete...

Garfield · 08-11-2002, 10:32 PM

Pete:

I do not agree that either of the two 1910 Erfurts have been "authenticated". What ever that means.

Jan C Still · 08-11-2002, 10:38 PM

Pete
Your statement above
"Take the fact of 1910 Erfurts. When one of the first ones surfaced, an expert said this could not possibly be a real Erfurt luger."

I am very familiar with the 1910 Erfurt study presented in AUTO MAG. I dont recall any collector that contributed to this study making a statement like that. However, it was pointed out that contract restraints may have prevented production.
Jan

Heydrich · 08-11-2002, 10:49 PM

[quote]as being issued by the various dAmts of the Sicherheits Dienst or Heidrich's boys.<hr></blockquote>

What? LOL.

Navy · 08-11-2002, 11:01 PM

Heydrich, mein komerad,
Excuse my ham handed typing, Bitte.
I have no idea what a dAmpt is except a typo.
Tom A. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Herb · 08-12-2002, 01:11 AM

TomA, as an observation, there must have been a hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf at that time to have so many Lugers stamped with that mark. This is not logical, so many Lugers, so many Dusseldorf rack stamps. You say that,essentially, the Dulleldorf Police outnumbered the SicherheitsDienst in total numbers, that is one BIG police force. The SicherheitsDienst were the boys that ran/guarded the concertration camps in several countries, how could have the Dusseldorf police force outnumbered them, makes no sense to me. Some observations are that the SD were also the GESTAPO. If so this would add many thousands to the number. Please explain your comments.

Jan C Still · 08-12-2002, 02:47 AM

Herb
Herb stated "there must have been a hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf at that time to have so many Lugers stamped with that mark. This is not logical, so many Lugers, so many Dusseldorf rack stamps."

That S.D. on the front straps of (mostly double date sear safety) Lugers signifies Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf has been clearly established with period documents and luger examples in books by Still, Walters, and Gortz going back 20 years and in the pages of AUTO MAG. The magnitude of the weapons numbers is similar to that of other large city police forces.

I am not an expert on Nazi party police forces but my recollection is that the SD of the Nazi party was a smaller theory/educational group. It didnt cover the concentration camp Guards or the Gestapo. (I am not certain of this so please correct me with the facts if I am wrong.)(correction 08/12/02 my SD explanation is partly incorrect; for a correct explanation see Garfield below or AXIS PISTOLS (1986) p191-194)

Ralph Shattuck may still continue to incorrectly list SD marked Lugers as SD of the Nazi Party.

Jan

Jimbo · 08-12-2002, 02:50 AM

Garfield,

Refering to the Gibson book recommendation. I will get one ASAP. Thanks.

Jimbo

Garfield · 08-12-2002, 02:56 AM

Herb:

I believe that you have your wires crossed. The SD was the Security Service in charge of gathering intelligence, both foreign and domestic. Perhaps you are confusing the SD with the Sipo or security police to which the Kripo (Criminal Police) and the Gestapo (Secret State Police) were subordinate. While Heydrich ran both the Sipo and the SD, the SD was a seperate and distinct entity. It appears that there considerable rivalry existed between the SD and the Gestapo. The SD had nothing to do with running or guarding of the concentration camps. For that matter, neither did the Sipo.

Garfield · 08-12-2002, 03:02 AM

Jimbo:

There are two printings, the first in 1980 and the second in 1988. I have been told that the pictures in the first printing are of a better quality. I have the second printing and think that the pics are fine. Just mention this for what it is worth.

Good Hunting

Heydrich · 08-12-2002, 04:55 AM

The SD (Sicherheitsdienst) was the Secret Service of the Main office of Reich Security (RHSA) under Himmler. The RHSA consisted of the Sipo (the Security police), the Gestapo, and the SD. All were separate internal organizations. The SD was largely manned by professional hatchet men who did their jobs methodically, whether in action against partisans or in executing prisoners of war (like Soviet Commissars) turned over to them. One of its tasks was reporting on the moral of the civilian population, which it did very objectively. The SD was first run by Reinhard Heydrich, and then by Ernst Kaltenbrunner after Czech patriots killed Heydrich in 1942. The SD was not in charge of gathering foreign intelligence. That was the job of Admiral Canaris and the Abwehr, the Gestapo, and the respective military intelligence services. One thing that made the SD so very feared by many was that it was in charge of conducting internal investigations of the Nazi Party. In the guerrilla warfare that went on in the German government of that time, this made people like Heydrich (and later Kaltenbrunner) extremely feared men. Heydrich was one of those rare people who had a very high intelligence and absolutely no conscious what so ever, and even people like Himmler feared him.

unspellable · 08-12-2002, 10:22 AM

Question: If there should happen to be an unaccountably large number of Lugers marked for one or another civilian (Non-party) police force, might this be part of the creative book keeping employed in the late Wiemar and early Nazi periods to hide the true number of pistols the Germans had in hand?

08-11-2002, 02:54 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Buy Books, Read and Study All, It has become apparent to me that there are several members and contributors (and you know who you are so don't bother wasting time with feeble excuses) who cause forum discord by asking questions and then refuting answers they receive from some internationally known experts who are or used to be in this group. A quick run through of some of the questions indicates that in several instances, the questioner had not read or was not aware of authoritative published material that covered the topic in detail. This is a basic failure to do one's homework. Folks, if you are going to play in this pool, you need to know how to swim pretty well-pardon the metaphor. Let me be direct. Before anyone buys their second Luger-if they are seriously intending to be a collector-they should have a copy of every book written about Lugers in the English language. That means 2 Kenyons, Davis, Costanzo, Bobba, 6 of Still, 3 Datig (or is it 4?)Jones, 2 Reese, 3 Walters,...well, you get the point. You simply have to know what you are buying and there is no time-efficient way to learn it all first hand. Soooo, instead, buy the books, read and study. After you have read them all cover to cover, made notes on the inconsistencies between one author and another or in a single author's work, and have done some field research, then it is appropriate to challenge the author's authority. I am by no means saying everything in all of the books is absolute gospel, but its pretty damn close, and most of the errors of fact in these works, such as the infamous Costanzo mistake on the meaning of the S.D. property mark, are well known to the collecting fraternity. So, before you buy more Lugers, buy the opportunity to acquire more Luger knowledge first. You will not regret it. And you will not appear such a neophyte in public venues such as the forum. Believe me, $800-1000 spent on books will save you tens of thousands over time. My zwei pfennigs. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

08-11-2002, 04:10 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tom, I echo what you said, get every reference you can find and study them. Yes there are inconsistancies between one author and another, and I have found this forum an excellent means to try to sort these out. My problem is trying to remember everything I have read, about the best I can do is remember where I found it and then try to do it again. I need some education on you comment about the S.D. strap marking, what does it mean? When I was collecting militaria a few years back S.D. on armbands did mean Sicherheitsdienst, or security office (Bureau) I must have missed something somewhere. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-11-2002, 06:47 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Even if only interested in certain eras of Lugers, you may very well come across a wonderful buy and wish you knew more. So I am slowly buying all the books that I can on the diversified Luger. After all knowledge is power. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-11-2002, 07:09 PM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ed, get empowered!! Some other worth while ones are Luger Variations by Harry E. Jones, The Luger Story by John Walter, The Luger Book by John Walter, and The Luger Pistol by Datig. By the way, the recommendation for you to get Krieghoff Parabellum by Gibson is a good one, that is an excellent reference on Krieghoffs, chock full of really great close up photos of Kriegs, get that one first as they are getting hard to find. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-12-2002, 01:11 AM	#14
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	TomA, as an observation, there must have been a hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf at that time to have so many Lugers stamped with that mark. This is not logical, so many Lugers, so many Dusseldorf rack stamps. You say that,essentially, the Dulleldorf Police outnumbered the SicherheitsDienst in total numbers, that is one BIG police force. The SicherheitsDienst were the boys that ran/guarded the concertration camps in several countries, how could have the Dusseldorf police force outnumbered them, makes no sense to me. Some observations are that the SD were also the GESTAPO. If so this would add many thousands to the number. Please explain your comments. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-11-2002, 06:12 PM	#3
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Tom A and Herb, I am only interested in Mauser Lugers and Krieghoffs. I own Still's "Third Reich Lugers" and Kenyon's "Lugers at Random". What other books do I need. Thank you for the book recommendations. Jimbo

08-11-2002, 06:28 PM	#4
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jimbo: Krieghoff Parabellum by Randall Gibson for one.

08-11-2002, 06:29 PM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Tom A. Absolutely agree, read read all you can. Observe, be humble, there's always more to,learn. "Experts" just have more experienced "opinions". By the way, could you inform me about Costanza's S.D. error, I missed that one (always willing to learn). [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

08-11-2002, 07:33 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	In Costanzo's magnificent work, and yes, I am away from home station on contractor site, so I can't give you page and figure number, but he cites grip strap markings SD with Roman numerals I -VI followed by arabic numerals as being issued by the various dAmts of the Sicherheits Dienst or Heidrich's boys. Works great as an operating hypothesis and was (and still is) widely believed to be fact. T'ain't so. Goertz in his wonderful work on German markings broke the code on these; they are Schupo Duesseldorf, Dusseldorf Municipal police. The Roman numeral corresponds to the administrative district and the arabic numeral is the rack number. To back up his hypothesis, he has copies of Prussian Police documents prescribing the marking and, coincidentally, all known specemins have the Police safety. To further debunk the Sicherheits Dienst theory, there are simply too many of these guns around with numbers that are too high for the size of the relatively short-lived and small S.D. Oh, in addition to reading and studying Luger books, it helps a GREAT deal if one studies the history, politics, geography and police jurisdictional aspects of Germany. By doing that you can avoid thinking that Potsdam is in Thuringia as apparently some one did some time ago. My Zwei pfennigs, Tom A.

08-11-2002, 09:56 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Tom A, I, too, absolutely agree with all you say. Being one of the neophytes and having purchased over 29 various luger books; I know there is always room for improvement and more study. I do realize the wide range of luger collectors here on the Forum. I would think this "pool" has both a shallow end for beginners and the deep end for the experts. And length enough for guys that just want to take laps on the surface. At some point in time a few years back, even the experts were just starting out and probably bought a "bad" luger now and then. I am also old enough to realize that not every thing in life if absolutely "black and white". Once in a great while even an expert can be incorrect. Take the fact of 1910 Erfurts. When one of the first ones surfaced, an expert said this could not possibly be a real Erfurt luger. A bit later the expert saw that 1910 Erfurt in person and did not only authenticate it but even offered a few big bucks to buy it. Now I understand that at least two 1910's are thought to be authentic by the experts. Regards, Pete...

08-11-2002, 10:32 PM	#10
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete: I do not agree that either of the two 1910 Erfurts have been "authenticated". What ever that means.

08-11-2002, 10:38 PM	#11
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Pete Your statement above "Take the fact of 1910 Erfurts. When one of the first ones surfaced, an expert said this could not possibly be a real Erfurt luger." I am very familiar with the 1910 Erfurt study presented in AUTO MAG. I dont recall any collector that contributed to this study making a statement like that. However, it was pointed out that contract restraints may have prevented production. Jan

08-11-2002, 10:49 PM	#12
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]as being issued by the various dAmts of the Sicherheits Dienst or Heidrich's boys.<hr></blockquote> What? LOL.

08-11-2002, 11:01 PM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Heydrich, mein komerad, Excuse my ham handed typing, Bitte. I have no idea what a dAmpt is except a typo. Tom A. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

08-12-2002, 02:47 AM	#15
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Herb Herb stated "there must have been a hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf at that time to have so many Lugers stamped with that mark. This is not logical, so many Lugers, so many Dusseldorf rack stamps." That S.D. on the front straps of (mostly double date sear safety) Lugers signifies Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf has been clearly established with period documents and luger examples in books by Still, Walters, and Gortz going back 20 years and in the pages of AUTO MAG. The magnitude of the weapons numbers is similar to that of other large city police forces. I am not an expert on Nazi party police forces but my recollection is that the SD of the Nazi party was a smaller theory/educational group. It didnt cover the concentration camp Guards or the Gestapo. (I am not certain of this so please correct me with the facts if I am wrong.)(correction 08/12/02 my SD explanation is partly incorrect; for a correct explanation see Garfield below or AXIS PISTOLS (1986) p191-194) Ralph Shattuck may still continue to incorrectly list SD marked Lugers as SD of the Nazi Party. Jan

08-12-2002, 02:50 AM	#16
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Garfield, Refering to the Gibson book recommendation. I will get one ASAP. Thanks. Jimbo

08-12-2002, 02:56 AM	#17
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Herb: I believe that you have your wires crossed. The SD was the Security Service in charge of gathering intelligence, both foreign and domestic. Perhaps you are confusing the SD with the Sipo or security police to which the Kripo (Criminal Police) and the Gestapo (Secret State Police) were subordinate. While Heydrich ran both the Sipo and the SD, the SD was a seperate and distinct entity. It appears that there considerable rivalry existed between the SD and the Gestapo. The SD had nothing to do with running or guarding of the concentration camps. For that matter, neither did the Sipo.

08-12-2002, 03:02 AM	#18
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jimbo: There are two printings, the first in 1980 and the second in 1988. I have been told that the pictures in the first printing are of a better quality. I have the second printing and think that the pics are fine. Just mention this for what it is worth. Good Hunting

08-12-2002, 04:55 AM	#19
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The SD (Sicherheitsdienst) was the Secret Service of the Main office of Reich Security (RHSA) under Himmler. The RHSA consisted of the Sipo (the Security police), the Gestapo, and the SD. All were separate internal organizations. The SD was largely manned by professional hatchet men who did their jobs methodically, whether in action against partisans or in executing prisoners of war (like Soviet Commissars) turned over to them. One of its tasks was reporting on the moral of the civilian population, which it did very objectively. The SD was first run by Reinhard Heydrich, and then by Ernst Kaltenbrunner after Czech patriots killed Heydrich in 1942. The SD was not in charge of gathering foreign intelligence. That was the job of Admiral Canaris and the Abwehr, the Gestapo, and the respective military intelligence services. One thing that made the SD so very feared by many was that it was in charge of conducting internal investigations of the Nazi Party. In the guerrilla warfare that went on in the German government of that time, this made people like Heydrich (and later Kaltenbrunner) extremely feared men. Heydrich was one of those rare people who had a very high intelligence and absolutely no conscious what so ever, and even people like Himmler feared him.

08-12-2002, 10:22 AM	#20
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Question: If there should happen to be an unaccountably large number of Lugers marked for one or another civilian (Non-party) police force, might this be part of the creative book keeping employed in the late Wiemar and early Nazi periods to hide the true number of pistols the Germans had in hand?