new swiss variation

R.Allara · 09-04-2003, 06:39 PM

Just about markings: did you know that there is a new variation of Swiss mod. 1900 Parabellum? All the items I've seen before the serial number 96 do not have the Major Vogelsang approuval marking. So this is a new variation, before the first one known. I'll propose to call it "base model" because this will not affect the established name of swiss variations. Do anybody agree with me? Sorry, my English is poor

Ron Wood · 09-04-2003, 08:51 PM

I can extend the range of serial numbers of this "variation". I have a 1900 Swiss serial number 109 that has the Type I safety, unrelieved frame with flat button magazine, and only bears the small Swiss federal cross proof on the barrel and left side of the receiver. There is no Major Vogelsang inspection mark. It is not a commercial model as it is not BUG proof marked.

R.Allara · 09-06-2003, 05:35 AM

Thank you, Ron. I don't believe there are reproductions of swiss lugers mod.1900. Too much expensive. But maybe someone has made a reproduction of a "E" serial number, as I've seen a pistol having this serialization that seems to be suspect. Being a very expensive collector's item, could be this is a fake

Ron Wood · 09-06-2003, 12:02 PM

Roberto,
The "If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction" is my "signature". I put that statement on all my posts. It is not a comment on the Swiss Model 1900. Since I am primarily interested in Imperial era Lugers, I joke that any Luger made after 1918 is not made by the original manufacturers and therefore, a "reproduction". This bit of attempted humor frequently causes confusion.

Pete Ebbink · 09-06-2003, 11:42 PM

Hello Ron and Roberto,

In the book written by Horst Rutsch, "Faustfeuerwaffen Der Eidgenossen", on pages 169, 171, 177, there are M1900 pistols # 387, # 369, # 389 that also appear to stretch this "no Vogelsang" variation a bit higher. They are also a 1900 model, type I thumb safety lever, and only appears to have the small swiss crosses and no Vogelsang stampings...based on what I can see in the photos presented in the book.

Has any one determined when Vogelsang's mark started appearing on lugers...? Might it have been with the type II thumb safety models...?

p.s. Ron, on the topic of M1906/34 Swiss Mauser lugers with the "Kal. 7,65" inscriptions we were trading e-mails on; in the same Rutsch book on page 241 is shown such a beast...serial # 3877v...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

R.Allara · 09-13-2003, 11:34 AM

Thank you, Pete, sorry for the late answer. I checked the Rutsch's book and you're right. I also had a look to pistol #363, no Vogelsang, while the #646 has it. So the mark appears before the type II thumb safety. I noticed that the #34 and #70 do have relieved frame, athough the serializations appears to be of the first variation, with flat button and unrelieved frame. The topic is becoming a bit confuse, isn't it? About Vogelsang's mark, maybe the first lot delivered, around 500 pistols, does not have it. Has somebody had a look to #501?

Pete Ebbink · 09-13-2003, 01:03 PM

Hello Roberto,

Thanks for the update. So no we know Vogelsang started inspecting before the type II thumb safety lever...hope someone that owns # 501 replies to your additional question.

J. Walther in his book, "The Luger Book" on page 282, states that Herr Vogelsang's tenure was from 1879-1912 at the Bern factory.

I noticed that on some Model 1882 Swiss revolvers they can also have a Cross/V in cartouce marking. I first thought that this was Vogelang's stamping as well.

But I asked on the SwissRifles.com discussion board, and the nice Swiss gun folks there said that is one theory, but it is not known for certain if Vogelsang inspected/stamped the M1882's.

Speculating that he did indeed inspect/stamp guns as early as 1879, as Walter indicates, then why do you suppose he was not involved in the early M1900 luger production guns...??? Other duties, illness, vacation, etc...? Maybe we will never know for certain...but I would think (placing myself in his shoes at thiat time in history) that Vogelsang would be too important a leader at Bern to miss the first run of M1900 production lugers coming through the factory floor...curious...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-04-2003, 06:39 PM	#1
R.Allara User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	new swiss variation Just about markings: did you know that there is a new variation of Swiss mod. 1900 Parabellum? All the items I've seen before the serial number 96 do not have the Major Vogelsang approuval marking. So this is a new variation, before the first one known. I'll propose to call it "base model" because this will not affect the established name of swiss variations. Do anybody agree with me? Sorry, my English is poor

09-04-2003, 08:51 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	I can extend the range of serial numbers of this "variation". I have a 1900 Swiss serial number 109 that has the Type I safety, unrelieved frame with flat button magazine, and only bears the small Swiss federal cross proof on the barrel and left side of the receiver. There is no Major Vogelsang inspection mark. It is not a commercial model as it is not BUG proof marked. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-06-2003, 12:02 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Roberto, The "If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction" is my "signature". I put that statement on all my posts. It is not a comment on the Swiss Model 1900. Since I am primarily interested in Imperial era Lugers, I joke that any Luger made after 1918 is not made by the original manufacturers and therefore, a "reproduction". This bit of attempted humor frequently causes confusion. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-06-2003, 05:35 AM	#3
R.Allara User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you, Ron. I don't believe there are reproductions of swiss lugers mod.1900. Too much expensive. But maybe someone has made a reproduction of a "E" serial number, as I've seen a pistol having this serialization that seems to be suspect. Being a very expensive collector's item, could be this is a fake

09-06-2003, 11:42 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ron and Roberto, In the book written by Horst Rutsch, "Faustfeuerwaffen Der Eidgenossen", on pages 169, 171, 177, there are M1900 pistols # 387, # 369, # 389 that also appear to stretch this "no Vogelsang" variation a bit higher. They are also a 1900 model, type I thumb safety lever, and only appears to have the small swiss crosses and no Vogelsang stampings...based on what I can see in the photos presented in the book. Has any one determined when Vogelsang's mark started appearing on lugers...? Might it have been with the type II thumb safety models...? p.s. Ron, on the topic of M1906/34 Swiss Mauser lugers with the "Kal. 7,65" inscriptions we were trading e-mails on; in the same Rutsch book on page 241 is shown such a beast...serial # 3877v... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-13-2003, 11:34 AM	#6
R.Allara User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you, Pete, sorry for the late answer. I checked the Rutsch's book and you're right. I also had a look to pistol #363, no Vogelsang, while the #646 has it. So the mark appears before the type II thumb safety. I noticed that the #34 and #70 do have relieved frame, athough the serializations appears to be of the first variation, with flat button and unrelieved frame. The topic is becoming a bit confuse, isn't it? About Vogelsang's mark, maybe the first lot delivered, around 500 pistols, does not have it. Has somebody had a look to #501?

09-13-2003, 01:03 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Roberto, Thanks for the update. So no we know Vogelsang started inspecting before the type II thumb safety lever...hope someone that owns # 501 replies to your additional question. J. Walther in his book, "The Luger Book" on page 282, states that Herr Vogelsang's tenure was from 1879-1912 at the Bern factory. I noticed that on some Model 1882 Swiss revolvers they can also have a Cross/V in cartouce marking. I first thought that this was Vogelang's stamping as well. But I asked on the SwissRifles.com discussion board, and the nice Swiss gun folks there said that is one theory, but it is not known for certain if Vogelsang inspected/stamped the M1882's. Speculating that he did indeed inspect/stamp guns as early as 1879, as Walter indicates, then why do you suppose he was not involved in the early M1900 luger production guns...??? Other duties, illness, vacation, etc...? Maybe we will never know for certain...but I would think (placing myself in his shoes at thiat time in history) that Vogelsang would be too important a leader at Bern to miss the first run of M1900 production lugers coming through the factory floor...curious... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />