No Room for Bigotry

[mm]

User
Member # 154

From the Military Luger Discussion Board posted 09-17-2003 02:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mikhail Zeleny - the correct name of a country is the name it chooses to call itself - PERIOD! Perhaps, you would prefer to call the US as the "American Colonies of Great Britain?

Ukraine aquired her independence - she is no longer brutally dominated by a Godless, murderous and genocidal neighbor.

FYI: For anyone not familar with the bigoted, ethnically hate-filled insistance, by some, of the useage of the article "The" before "Ukraine" - it is similar to calling an adult African-American male "boy" It is a slur that is meant to demean and "put Ukrainians in their place"; to remind them that they are "less than" or inferior to ethnic Russians. These bigots would deny Ukraine its history, language and culture. Under the Tsars and especially under the Soviet Commissars, Russification of Ukraine was brutal and never-ending. I hope that The Luger Forum Moderators will not tolerate ethnic hate speech to be slipped into the dialog on this wonderful site. MM

--------------------
mjm

[Edward Tinker]

Did you e-mail and ASK him if he realized his "mistake"?

I find this hard to believe that saying "THE" Ukraine is a bigoted statement. This can very well be that I do not know this part of the world and country, and apoligize for my ignorance. I have to guess that SFBAY is NOT your native land, and must have affiliations with Ukraine? I almost said The Ukraine as that is how I have heard it my entire life, just as I got my back up to several people that referred to "Jap" guns, yet as I have gotten around Japanese Collectors, they call them Jap guns. I do not like the term, but it is a term that has been used for many, many years in the Japanese collecting field.

I almost deleted your thread, as I myself found your tactic of attack as fairly offensive, but re-read it several times and if it is as you say, I can understand why you were upset. However, this is a common thinking of usage of referring to the Ukraine and it will be Many years before it is out of usage in the USA. In fact, I would think many countries are commonally referred to as the, you don't hear The Canada, but you hear, The USA, The Congo, The Netherlands, etc., so it is very possible that Michael meant little by it.

Again, I ask, did you take this matter up with him, before publically calling him a bigot for a term that many Americans would not find offense (and again, I apoligize if it is, but my reasoning stands above),

best regards,

Ed

[John Sabato]

MM,

I have more than one professional associate whose origins can be recently traced back to Ukraine... and one thing that is typical among them is that in their own language, there are basically no 'articles' used much in common language.

That is not the case in 'the' English language or it's American variant... Articles are not only used, but they are considered required for proper use of the Language. You can't impose the Ukranian grammatical structure on English because it would not only sound like gibberish, but would sound crude...

If you are offended by what you percieve as bigotry in a post by a forum member you have many alternatives, but one of them is not a bad mannered reply or you are guilty of the same behavior of which you charge the other member of the forum.

You can report the post via the mechanism that is provided at the end of each post: (See the 'report post' ICON at the bottom of each post)

You can inquire in a congenial manner to the originator to try and educate him or her...

or contact him or her via Private Message and vent your disagreement...

I understand your feelings regarding the history of the Ukraine, and now all who have read your post know better...but those other 280 million Americans who have not read your post will probably still refer to Ukraine as THE Ukraine with no disrepect intended. I don[t know anyone in THE USA who wouldn't have made the same mistake (if there was one) that Mr. Mikhail Zeleny made.

There are rules for the use of this forum by registered members and the only thing that is really NOT tolerated is bad manners... I respectfully request that you pull yours into "normal" mode and consider other perspectives before you cry "bigot" on this forum.

Now let's all cool off and get back to Lugers...

[Sieger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by mm:
<strong>User
Member # 154

From the Military Luger Discussion Board posted 09-17-2003 02:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...Ukraine aquired her independence - she is no longer brutally dominated by a Godless, murderous and genocidal neighbor...

"The Luger Forum Moderators will not tolerate ethnic hate speech to be slipped into the dialog on this wonderful site. MM"
--------------------
mjm</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Bigoted? Bigoted statement?

Who is the object of bigotry in this statement?

I, as an American who's family settled here in 1733, find this statement very bigoted, as I know many wonderful Russians!!

Please, please refrain from future comments like this. If you have a problem, please contact the person through the private message system and air out your problems with them privately.

Sieger

[Michael Zeleny]

The prerogatives of national autonomy stop short of dictating the grammar of foreign languages. The Ukraine does not choose to call itself anything starting with a definite article, for want of articles in Russian and Ukrainian alike. The fact remains that the meaning of its name requires a definite article when rendered into English, by analogy with The Netherlands. An alternative means of reasserting the nationalist dignity might consist in renaming the independent country, e.g. to Obezglaviya, in keeping with its emergent democratic tradition stipulating decapitation as the proper response to independent journalism.

[Navy]

All,
Fer cryin' in the beer!
Lighten up. We are ALL immigrants or of immigrant descent here. Get a sense of humor and be thankful that we are in a place where we can still enjoy our hobby (mostly)and the only real enemies any of us have are over zealous Government folks/wannabees who would take our freedoms and the Islamic theofascists who would see us all dead.
Forget the hatreds of the past; it is the enemies of today and tomorrow we must be concerned about.
Tom A.

[John Sabato]

There is that Brit sense of humor again! Leave it to Tacfoley to lighten the mood!

Way to go Tac... cheers to Ig.

[unspellable]

I'm not sure it's strictly a matter of grammar. Ukrainian lacks the definite article, but I know Ukrainians who are not in the least offended by my saying "The Ukraine". Rather than grammar, I think it's a matter of what feels natural to the English speaking tongue. We often say "The Yukon". Certain leading sounds just seem to require the article in order to sound right. A bit like the use of the English indefinite article, "a" and "an". An English speaker certainly means nothing derogatory by using the article in front of "Ukraine". What if we were using Classical Greek where the definite article comes in front of all proper nouns such as personal names. (Don't know if this holds for modern Greek.)

And before we get derogatory about the Russians, let's remember they just got out from under the same system. And what about my friend who is of Ukrainian birth but Russian citizenship?

[wterrell]

This is too much!
Seems that everyone has issues. Feelings on their sleeves. Kinda makes you feel powerful to have others tip-toeing around and afraid to even open their mouthes.
You are now in THE United States of America. Get over it!

[policeluger]

Born in India, too Iranian mother and American fly boy father, I love America....where we all can collect the period/style of Lugers we want without offending those who collect Lugers outside of our period/style of interest.

[ToggleTop]

I enjoyed all these comments very much.I am gratified that I can set out here in the woods miles from anybody and read such interesting comments associated with something I would have never even given any thought to. I never realized the word "The" had such great meaning but I do learn something everyday. My main concerns today were felling a tree hanging over the house, painting my dad's garage and getting a flat fixed on my wife's car. The county also recently went up on the property tax to fund the education program here. By the way I live on The Tennessee River. I think it's called The Tennessee River. Does any of this makes sense, the more I write the more confused I get so I am stopping here. I do appreciate other peoples cultures but find it hard to know them all. I am sure I will forget this one by morning.

[Heinz]

You guys are all great. Lugerpolice is right, except maybe about those Weimar collectors, something a little strange there :-)

[George Anderson]

MM, Wow! Your post and this whole damn string is bizarre. Y'all need to find some better focus for your frustration like wishing death and damnation on the godless bastard savages that attacked us on Sep 11 two years ago and will do so again if we don't exterminate the sons-of-bitches.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Sounds like somebody wants to start a fight...This is not what the Forum is about. Stick to a subject we all can appreciate and keep you "feelings" to yourself. There is plenty of this in the newspapers but we all come here in the spirit of unity behind one historical subject that is dear to us. Lets see if we can stick to that....Jerry Burney

[Big Norm]

You got it Jerry! Your right on the money.
Big Norm

[Thor]

Looger is spelled L U G E R......or that is the way I remember it!

[AGE]

Do you "take THE Luger to the range" or do you "take Luger to the range"? I would like to know so I say it without offending anybody.

[Edward Tinker]

bye bye to anymore

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />