Military or Police?

[WadeN]

First of all, Hello All! I guess ya'll know I'm a newbie. I did some research on our Luger on this wonderful site and learned a great deal. My son (10yrs) and I will have a great deal of quality time learning about our gun passed down from his great grand father, including several other police and military guns. Not nearly the info on them as can be found here on the Luger. Many thanks.

It looks like we have a 2-Date (1920-1918) DWM, with Proof#15 markings, serial 4763 a, matching numbers, matching magazine, P.08 Holster no tool. Overall the gun looks very good, one part of the handle is broke (1/4") on the left side near the trigger, little straw, good blue (95%)

"STARK" is stamped 1/2 size on magazine?

Based on what we have learned here we are very pleased with the gun and will not be shooting it, but I have seen references to Police versions or modifications that I did not pick up on while trying to figure out what we have. What does this mean.

I plan to put some pictures up with my Christmas digital camera once I figure that all out.

Thanks,
WadeN <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

Welcome to you and your son!

Try doing a search on "police" on the above search link and many items will come up. Buy a couple of books, Weimar Lugers by Jan Still covers the time frame of your gun. That is a period I am interested in, as I am also very interested in the police variations. During the 1930's, "police" guns were given a sear safety and / or a magazine safety and this is the main way that people can tell if it is a police gun. Some are police marked and of course this is another give-away. Further if they are from the above, they would have police acceptance stamps (a small stamp like some of the other stamps found on the gun).

I enjoy the wildness of the Weimar period, as you never know what you might come across!

Ed

[RockinWR]

WadeN,
* Looking forward to your pics. Give the high tech camera to your son, tell him its a video game, and he'll have you cooking digitals in a flash(pardon the pun). Seriously, strong indirect lighting or good sunlight helps I'm told. However, its a learned art I know little of.
* 1/4" of left handle? (wood grip - I assume) missing by the trigger could be a Police mod for a once active Mag Safety. Most Mag. Safeties were removed or deactivated.
* Aaron (member #183) had a relevant post titled "1914 Erfurt Police" started 2/2/02. Clear pictures by Ed of Mag & Sear safety installations are shown.
* Aluminum base mag plugs were introduced about 1925 although wood bases were used up to 1929 when the supplies ran out. A single numeral "1", "2", or "3" on the mag plug or lower tube spine would be indicative of Police issue.
* If the closure strap is sowed to the holster body and closes on a stud inbedded in the bucket flap, it will be a Police holster. If the strap is sowed to the flap and closes through a buckle sowed to the body, it will likely be an Army holster. Maker's name, city, and date should be impression stamped either on the back between the belt loops, by the knot of the lift strap on the front body, or on the inside of the top bucket. Other locations appear occasionally. Many stamps fade over the years or are rubbed over to oblivion. Police holsters are also known to have numerals on the right upper back.
* Ed's right: Weimar Lugers are a hoot as there are so many variations, makers, marking, etc. Risking a stereotype use, even the normally staunch, regimented German preciseness deviated in those hard, volatile times.
Respectfully,
WR

[policeluger]

waiting for pics but your "STARK" mag is very rare!!!

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Waden,

Here is a photo of two things on a luger that make it a police luger :

1. Sear safety (bar on top of the sear mechanism held down with a rivot).

2. Magazine safety (device behind the trigger to block its action if the magazine is out of the frame). The one on my luger was deactivated by having its tab right behind the trigger cut/filed down...

The trigger side plate is removed in this photo to help show details.

Another feature of police lugers is to have the grip strap unit marked with police unit ID numbers and letters.

If your luger does not have these, it is a Weimar era rework (i.e. the 1920 stamping) of a DWM 1918 military luger.



Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[WadeN]

Thanks for the help and guidance. I created a new member gallery entry for our luger. Sorry the pics did not come out too good. I could not figure out how to focus up close. Set it on Macro but no major improvement. Sorry that the "STARK" does not show up, it is just left of the rivet and very small. Nor did all the stuff on the bottom of the magazine show up. There is some kind of squigly proof mark under the bottom of the Roman Num. II.

Please let me know what ya'll think of our gun and what it may be.

[WadeN]

Our gun does not have the riveted piece behind the trigger, the grip is cut very similar to the picture. There may have been numbers stamped on the finger grip strap, but there is also a little pitting that makes it difficut to make out, or if they were there they have been rubbed off it that is possible.

Another couple of marks to aid the professionals. There is an eagle on the front left side of the toggle. and 8.83 under the barrel.

Did a site search on "STARK" and did not get any hits, where can I get more information on the magazine.

[Edward Tinker]

Just have a minute, I am unsure about the Stark magazines, new to me, the 8,83 is the measurement from Land to land on the rifeling, you will see 8,82, 8,83, 8,84, etc., but of course very close to this measurement.

[Ron Wood]

"Stark" is German for "strong". The marking on your magazine could be anything from a former owner's name to an indication that a stronger magazine spring was installed, or something else entirely.

The left grip on your Luger was cut for a magazine safety but there is no positive indication that one was ever installed. There is no visible cut in the side of the frame for the end of the magazine safety spring, but there is some discoloration in the photo of your Luger that might indicate a welded up and refinished cut. The glare on the photo makes it difficult to tell for certain. If you remove the side plate, is there a hole in the frame as shown in the photo Pete posted? That would indicate whether a mag safety was ever installed.

It is easy to see in your photos that the gun does have the sear safety.

One thing that would help improve the ability to clearly see the markings in your closeup photos would be to reduce the glare from the lighting or flash. Clear closeup photos are best taken in natural light, such as outside on a partially cloudy day or in a well lighted room so that you do not have to rely on harsh lighting to make the photo. It took me a while to learn this trick (and I still don't always get the photo I would like).

[ken d]

WadeN:

Your "stark" mag. See Bender's Luger Holsters and Accessories, page 290. Manufactured for police contract 1928-1931 by STARK in Berlin.

Regards

Ken D

[Ron Wood]

Thank you Ken! I was looking all through my references but never got around to Bender.

[WadeN]

I deleted my original gallery and added a new one with the better of the old pictures and some better close-ups. Still not great, but getting better. My son and I are having fun anyway and I sure appreciate the feed-back. It is exciting for us to learn all this about the gun.

After we get our gun identified as far was we can go, what would be the next step? We plan to get the books referenced in all the great feedback and may even look to add to our collection at some point. I would encourage all to include their children, it has really been great for us, thanks again. What is the best source to identify the more desirable versions?

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/WadeN

[WadeN]

Ken,

How can our mag have the "STARK" stamp and matching numbers to the gun serial #, when the magazine was made much later than the gun? I am assuming that the gun is a 1918 military version that was reworked in 1920 as a police version. I learned that matching magazines are not that important to the quality of piece, but we were happy that it does match.

Ron,

We don't have a tool and do not feel qualified so I don't think we will be taking any pieces off this one, unless ya'll think that it is not a collector and is a shooter, I never asked? Maybe we can find a shooter to learn how to break down. If you will tell me which picture to re-take, we would be happy to. I think it would be the one with the cut grip, but just let me know exactly where to focus, I still don't know what or where a "sear" is!

[Edward Tinker]

Hello WadeN, go to here, http://www.lugerforum.com/techinfo.html (and if you came through www.lugerforum.com )it is on your left, there is a wealth of information on this site! The pictures show all the parts and then there is the search of the forum, (I can't seem to get the Old Search to work John? And where is that tutorial on the HK's I'm such a funny guy, but I did pay my 2 cents for the year ya know)

Okay, added this, the magazine should have a # 2 (or a 1 or a 3), but NOT a II. Police Lugers were reworked many times and magazines numbered at that time by police arsenals, but I would say your magazine is incorrect no matter what? Is there other II's that collectors have seen?

Ed

[Ron Wood]

Wade,
Ed's direction to the Technical Information is good information. You do not need tools to take down a Luger as far as you need to go until you learn a lot more about them. It is quite easy. In the technical section there is a topic "Parts & Disassembly". Under "Disassembly" there are photo instructions. Steps 1 thru 11 are all you need for now, but skip steps 3 and 4 (I have no idea why they are in there or what they are supposed to accomplish). If you feel the urge to remove the grips, all you need to do is take out the grip screws, BUT - WATCH OUT WHEN REMOVING THE LEFT GRIP. It is very easy to break off the little portion at the top of the grip next to the safety. That is the most common mistake made by people when they attempt to disassemble a Luger for the first time (even old timers mess this up occasionally). The grip must be raised slightly at the bottom to clear the lug around the screw hole and then gently slid downward until it is clear of the frame and safety at the top. Then it can be lifted clear of the frame.

The only tricky part when re-assembling your Luger is getting the side plate back under the sear safety pin to get it into place. I have borrowed Pete's picture to point out some of the features we have been talking about.

[WadeN]

You guys are great! There is no cut in the frame for the magazine safety and no hole in the frame behind the trigger that I can see, it looks like where the rivet is on the picture that I would be able to see it with the plate still on.

We will review the technical sections in more detail. I don't have any more info on the magazine, hopefully the new picture helps. I think I also read somewhere that alum. mags where also available at a later date than 1920, so I just don't know. We were happy that the number matched, but maybe that's why they stamped it that way.

Any comments positive or negative concerning our gun are appreciated. Don't know where Great Grandfather got the rig, but we're very pleased he took the time to collect.

I need to add a photo of the holster "bdg. 41" stamp with what looks like a 4 horizontal lines a body, and 4 horizontal lines, maybe a different kind of eagle between loops and a large P.08.

I wish I could contribute like you guys can hate to just keep asking questions, maybe one day.

[Edward Tinker]

Actually WadeN, I learn every day, I answer by absorption from these guys, reading books and spitting out answers, and of course listening to friends like Ron.

Ask away, if you ask too many questions (and you probably won't), we'll just tell you

Seriously, the holster sounds like a WW2 holster? Does it have a "tie down" from the right towards the top to hold the holster top down? Or does it have an almost straight up and down tie down? (the 2nd is the actual type issued to police as a police rig), after the war, many guns were picked up out of bins and that is why so many holsters and pistols are not matched, (specifically talking about police vs army).

In the real world, a 1914 that fought in two wars might be "matched" with a 1942 holster, from supply, you were issued what was needed and not as we like to match up today.

Ed

[RockinWR]

Hi Jon !!
Hi WadeN,
* Let me make sure Jon's history thesis gets a "A". This example likely served in both Wars & the Weimar period in between.
* As you know, Originally, a WWI production by DWM in 1918 for the Imperial German Army. Jan Still, in his book Imperial Lugers estimates 118,000 were made before the Nov.11,1918 Armistice. No one quite sure if DWM continued, for a short period, to assemble remaining parts at the Berlin plant after the Armistice; but, their Military customer didn't seem to need them anymore with all the battlefield surplus around.
* Pistols were issued with two, Matching numbered, "bright" tin colored, mag tubes with wood base plugs.
* Your example is S/N 4763 "a" suffix or the 14,763rd made in 1918. Approximate DoMfg=Feb.10,1918 give or take. Probably earlier as a big push to arm the Army for the final battles of WWI is generally accepted.
* Treaty of Versailles accepted by the Weimar Assembly (New German Republic) on 6/22/1919 & signed in Paris on June 28,1919. By Versailles IMKK documents, the Army limited to 100,000, Navy to 15,000, & Police allowed to their preWar contingent of 150,000 men. Rebellion, chaos and marshall law prevalent.
* On 7 August, 1920, a new law "On the Disarming of the People" was published. Gun Control before Hitler. A "1920" Reichwehr stamp was used to indicate Army Property during the civilian grace period. Must have had a bunch of Ex-Military/Hunters as the turn-in/crush Program wasn't very successful.
* Per J. Still, in his Vol.V entitled Weimar Lugers states: "Double Date Lugers went to the Weimar Military or Police and some bear Army, Navy, or Police markings. Est. Qty. = 43,000". Lets say yours went to a Policeman. No way to know for sure on the info we have so far; but, the sear safety is definately later Police.
* 1925 - decree wood base plug mags would cease to be issued and would be replaced by the Al. metal base plug as the wood ones were used up. (See earlier post).
* Late 20's: The Allies are losing interest in the affairs of Germany. The old Imperial guard, who felt they were sold out by the politicians in 1918, begin to secretly re-arm. Police were an excellent, politically acceptable force to enact re-arming. This example goes in for re-furbishment to a Police arsenal or the only IMKK approved refurb Mfg. - Simson. "Stark" mag, reputed to have been Mfgd. 1923-1935, is substituted for the prior WWI wood bottom mag(s) & numbered to this example. John Walter, in his book, The Luger Book cites Costanzo's WOL1 reference; but, concludes as the previous post, above, that "Stark" means strong and was actually mfgd. by Haenel. The "squiggly" acceptance @ the bottom of the mag base under the "II" is likely the refurbishment (one of how many??) agent. Does the acceptance possibly look like a bird(bat) with a lot of "feathers" on the underside of the stamp over a numeral 6?? Your picture is just out of focus enough, I can't tell with the "II" over it.
* BTW, Ed, is the "II" for a second Centuria of some Police Unit?? I've seen Police grip strap markings use Roman numerals and have one mag example where the entire Police Unit marking was placed on the lower mag spine.
* Anyway, the sear safety was added sometime after 1929 in accord with Police regulations mandating same.
* bdg is an unknown Holster maker. There was a bdq listed as Ehrhardt & Kirsten of Taucha bei Leipzig from February, 1941 per J. Walter & E.Bender. The 4 lines, body, 4 lines is a straight winged eagle common to the post 1937 to 1945 time period. The sE should surmount a WaA###. bdq's Army Inspection acceptance designee used ###=170.
* The German's did not throw things away; especially, good things like a well taken care of Luger. Your Great grandpappy knew quality when he saw it too.
* Mystery Police unit would certainly be helpful & revealed by a front grip strap or holster marking. Even if ground off, didn't I read of a magnetic particle powder or rubber(wax) material (made in Fort Worth, Tx.) which could be used to non-invasively reveal old stampings?? Back to AutoMag...Let you know. Maybe one of our Forum members can post this technique/product.
Respectfully,
WR

[Edward Tinker]

Good post sir, and the guessing on the II sounds like it makes sense, I personnaly don't know, but anxiously await an answer also!

[Lugerdoc]

WadeN, To summarize Rocking WR, Your 1918 DWM PO8 (military) was still in military inventory in 1920 (not a date of rework) and was later used by the Weimar Police when the "Stark" marked mag was added and numbered to the pistol by a department armourer (I have several with Roman numeral I or II to indicated first or second matching mags and the sear safety was added, probably at the depot level, post 1928. Tom H.