Sent another one back

Navy · 07-31-2002, 09:59 AM

Yesterday afternoon, I sat down with what purported to be a late Weimar/early KM piece with the intertwined MA on the left side of the chamber. A neat looking gun in excellent condition.

Drug out the Ott light and loupe and started going over it very carefully.

All of the fonts on all the SN locations looked pretty good and were uniform in appearance, except...something didn't sit quite well.

Examined the Ost Flotte property marking; it looked properly struck and had the requisite halo, but still there was something.

Then, very suddenly I knew.

There was a smell to the piece. A very faint smell but present none the less. The scent of cold blue.

Went back to the markings and SN. Very close inspection under high magnification revealed there was a slight disparity between the top of the digit 5 on the front frame SN and else where on the gun. The difference was very slight but there none the less.

Examined the MA stamp and noted that it did not have the halo nor was it clearly under the finish. High magnification made it clear. The markings were engraved, not stamped and had apparently been touched up with cold blue also.

At $2K, this should be 100% right. It wasn't.

Back to the dealer and one more guy I shall not do business with again. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Roadkill · 07-31-2002, 10:28 AM

Question sir, do you keep a record of these returned items and would you share this info with other serious collectors if requested in private correspondence? The abject attempts at fraud in expensive pieces is evident. Other than expert examination, what is to protect a less experienced potential buyer from an expensive very accomplished deal? And is it known that even the seller knew it was a fake? Its really disheartening.

RK

Orv Reichert · 07-31-2002, 12:48 PM

If you don't want to 'burn' the dealer, at least publish the info [complete with SN] about the gun.

I would suspect that it will be resold to someone else?...and with no mention of the defects you cited.

I know of one P38 with a cracked slide that was shipped 3 times [many years ago] by a dealer who claimed he was not aware of the defect each time it was returned.

Info about the dealer was exchanged among P38 collectors and other NAPCA members. [dealer is now deceased]

Navy · 07-31-2002, 02:35 PM

Sn1705, no suffix

wterrell · 07-31-2002, 09:45 PM

--------------------

Name of dealer?

John Sabato · 08-05-2002, 02:37 PM

Tom A,

You simply must get a good digital camera and learn to use it so you can share your observations with us visually... While I hang on your every word [img]biggrin.gif[/img] you know that a photo is worth a thousand of them [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am not sure how we can deal with the smell issue though... <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

Navy · 08-05-2002, 02:54 PM

My Esteemed Colleague,

Money being a finite commodity, I can either buy Navy Lugers or digital cameras. I am *certain* you know the default answer on that one!

As fas as smell goes, it is a vitally important part of my examination approach. And with holsters, it is absolutely essential. I even give them a nibble in an unobtrusive location if it is a big dollar acquisition.

I always give any unit markings a sniff as well as the reverse side of the side plate and under the grips....these areas should have a distinct smell and should not smell ANYTHING like cold blue.

With holsters, W.W.I. era should smell very much like the inside of your grandma's purse with a heavy scent of tobacco smoke. W.W.II era should smell somewhat similarly but not nearly as intense...

Tom <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

John Sabato · 08-05-2002, 04:51 PM

Quite seriously Tom,

Is there any preparatory nose work involved in elevating your sense of smell prior to using such investigative methods? (...in a similar mode to eating a piece of bread to clear the palette prior to tasting different varieties of wine)...and No wisecrack answers please...(this last caveat is for those casual members of the peanut gallery... not you Tom. You always handle yourself in a proper and professional manner [img]biggrin.gif[/img] )

BTW, did Sn1705 (no suffix) mentioned above have a large head axle pin or not?

On the first issue, perhaps there is a workaround... do you currently own a video camera of any type?

Roadkill · 08-05-2002, 07:32 PM

John, welcome back and I hope you are well rested. <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
RK

Garfield · 08-06-2002, 01:31 AM

Tom A:

Have you ever eaten an entire holster at one sitting and, if so, which do you prefer: a WWI or a WWII?

Good Hunting,

Navy · 08-06-2002, 09:49 AM

To John S, I do have a digicam, its a Sony Mavica; I just don't have much talent when it comes to using it; to Garfield, actually I prefer a nice Weimar-era piece, particularly if accompanied with a nice foie gras as an appetizer, some sautee hercot vert and a nice Chateau Neuf de Pape. And I never consume a whole one at one sitting as the leftovers, like pot roast, are excellent after a day in the fridge.

Bon Appetite!

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

John Sabato · 08-07-2002, 12:18 PM

Just slightly <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" /> Tom,

You have a camera adequate to the task...It doesn't take talent to use your camera, it takes skill that is developed by practice... some of these long evenings spent in hotel rooms while you are traveling, take something about the size of a Luger or even a Luger! and start experimenting with the closeup mode. put a 3x5 card in the photo with the camera settings written on it, and when you look at the photos choose the best ones and then use the settings that were in that photo when you take subsequent closeup photos. Once you have closeups mastered, it is just a matter of using the right intensity of light and shadows to get good photos...

Fortunately, since the camera is digital, there is no waste of film and not even a waste of time since any learning experience is worth the time you put into it... The photos you take of a prospective purchase can be invaluable in making your purchase decision when examined under high magnification... especially when using a good graphic software tool like Paint Shop Pro 7

Just my $0.02

Doubs · 08-07-2002, 02:16 PM

To add just a little to what John has so nicely said, digital pictures can be a proof-positive record of your collection. Recovery of your guns would be helped immeasurably by good quality photographs if you were unfortunate enough to be burgled. Good pictures can also help you in any insurance recovery due to fire or other natural disaster loss. I just received (Monday) a really excellent digital camera that will improve my pictures 100 percent. It's a Fuji S602 Zoom with excellent micro capabilities plus a full range of other useful features. The total cost was less than 1/3 the price you paid for the Navy you returned and, IMO, well worth it when compared to other cameras. Just my .02 cents worth.

John Sabato · 08-07-2002, 02:24 PM

We will be waiting with anticipation for your first closeups Doubs!

My camera is a Kodak DC4800 that can focus as close as 7 inches and has variable pixel choices up to 3.3 megapixels uncompressed... I typically shoot at 2.2 Mp for most work. <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" />

Doubs · 08-07-2002, 11:56 PM

John, these are just test shots made as I try to learn about the camera and it's controls. Exposure was on auto; focus manual and I was in "Super Macro" mode that will focus down to 1 centimeter! I wasn't that close for these shots. I also used self timer to trip the shutter.

This is a non-import 1906 1st Issue altered Navy reworked by Frankenschloss during or after 1939 according to the E/N and E/J proof marks. The Frankenschloss name is on the right receiver and the proof marks and caliber are on the underside of the barrel.

John Sabato · 08-08-2002, 04:43 PM

Definitely looks like you got the hang of it... nice closeups!

Edward Tinker · 08-08-2002, 04:45 PM

Doubs, Looks like a nice looking gun.

Good pics!

Doubs · 08-08-2002, 06:14 PM

Thanks, guys. I need to work on setting up better lighting. As crowded as my den is now, that may prove to be a trick. A "ring flash" would be perfect but they run about half of the cost of the camera! Anyway, I appreciate the compliments.

G.T. · 08-09-2002, 12:19 PM

Tom A.! Look in your profile.....till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

07-31-2002, 09:59 AM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Sent another one back Yesterday afternoon, I sat down with what purported to be a late Weimar/early KM piece with the intertwined MA on the left side of the chamber. A neat looking gun in excellent condition. Drug out the Ott light and loupe and started going over it very carefully. All of the fonts on all the SN locations looked pretty good and were uniform in appearance, except...something didn't sit quite well. Examined the Ost Flotte property marking; it looked properly struck and had the requisite halo, but still there was something. Then, very suddenly I knew. There was a smell to the piece. A very faint smell but present none the less. The scent of cold blue. Went back to the markings and SN. Very close inspection under high magnification revealed there was a slight disparity between the top of the digit 5 on the front frame SN and else where on the gun. The difference was very slight but there none the less. Examined the MA stamp and noted that it did not have the halo nor was it clearly under the finish. High magnification made it clear. The markings were engraved, not stamped and had apparently been touched up with cold blue also. At $2K, this should be 100% right. It wasn't. Back to the dealer and one more guy I shall not do business with again. [img]frown.gif[/img]

07-31-2002, 12:48 PM	#3
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If you don't want to 'burn' the dealer, at least publish the info [complete with SN] about the gun. I would suspect that it will be resold to someone else?...and with no mention of the defects you cited. I know of one P38 with a cracked slide that was shipped 3 times [many years ago] by a dealer who claimed he was not aware of the defect each time it was returned. Info about the dealer was exchanged among P38 collectors and other NAPCA members. [dealer is now deceased] __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-31-2002, 09:45 PM	#5
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	-------------------- Name of dealer? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

08-05-2002, 02:37 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Tom A, You simply must get a good digital camera and learn to use it so you can share your observations with us visually... While I hang on your every word [img]biggrin.gif[/img] you know that a photo is worth a thousand of them [img]smile.gif[/img] I am not sure how we can deal with the smell issue though... <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-05-2002, 04:51 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Quite seriously Tom, Is there any preparatory nose work involved in elevating your sense of smell prior to using such investigative methods? (...in a similar mode to eating a piece of bread to clear the palette prior to tasting different varieties of wine)...and No wisecrack answers please...(this last caveat is for those casual members of the peanut gallery... not you Tom. You always handle yourself in a proper and professional manner [img]biggrin.gif[/img] ) BTW, did Sn1705 (no suffix) mentioned above have a large head axle pin or not? On the first issue, perhaps there is a workaround... do you currently own a video camera of any type? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-31-2002, 10:28 AM	#2
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Question sir, do you keep a record of these returned items and would you share this info with other serious collectors if requested in private correspondence? The abject attempts at fraud in expensive pieces is evident. Other than expert examination, what is to protect a less experienced potential buyer from an expensive very accomplished deal? And is it known that even the seller knew it was a fake? Its really disheartening. RK

07-31-2002, 02:35 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Sn1705, no suffix

08-05-2002, 02:54 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	My Esteemed Colleague, Money being a finite commodity, I can either buy Navy Lugers or digital cameras. I am certain you know the default answer on that one! As fas as smell goes, it is a vitally important part of my examination approach. And with holsters, it is absolutely essential. I even give them a nibble in an unobtrusive location if it is a big dollar acquisition. I always give any unit markings a sniff as well as the reverse side of the side plate and under the grips....these areas should have a distinct smell and should not smell ANYTHING like cold blue. With holsters, W.W.I. era should smell very much like the inside of your grandma's purse with a heavy scent of tobacco smoke. W.W.II era should smell somewhat similarly but not nearly as intense... Tom <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

08-05-2002, 07:32 PM	#9
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	John, welcome back and I hope you are well rested. <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> RK

08-06-2002, 01:31 AM	#10
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom A: Have you ever eaten an entire holster at one sitting and, if so, which do you prefer: a WWI or a WWII? Good Hunting,

08-06-2002, 09:49 AM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	To John S, I do have a digicam, its a Sony Mavica; I just don't have much talent when it comes to using it; to Garfield, actually I prefer a nice Weimar-era piece, particularly if accompanied with a nice foie gras as an appetizer, some sautee hercot vert and a nice Chateau Neuf de Pape. And I never consume a whole one at one sitting as the leftovers, like pot roast, are excellent after a day in the fridge. Bon Appetite! Tom A. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

08-07-2002, 12:18 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Just slightly <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" /> Tom, You have a camera adequate to the task...It doesn't take talent to use your camera, it takes skill that is developed by practice... some of these long evenings spent in hotel rooms while you are traveling, take something about the size of a Luger or even a Luger! and start experimenting with the closeup mode. put a 3x5 card in the photo with the camera settings written on it, and when you look at the photos choose the best ones and then use the settings that were in that photo when you take subsequent closeup photos. Once you have closeups mastered, it is just a matter of using the right intensity of light and shadows to get good photos... Fortunately, since the camera is digital, there is no waste of film and not even a waste of time since any learning experience is worth the time you put into it... The photos you take of a prospective purchase can be invaluable in making your purchase decision when examined under high magnification... especially when using a good graphic software tool like Paint Shop Pro 7 Just my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-07-2002, 02:16 PM	#13
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	To add just a little to what John has so nicely said, digital pictures can be a proof-positive record of your collection. Recovery of your guns would be helped immeasurably by good quality photographs if you were unfortunate enough to be burgled. Good pictures can also help you in any insurance recovery due to fire or other natural disaster loss. I just received (Monday) a really excellent digital camera that will improve my pictures 100 percent. It's a Fuji S602 Zoom with excellent micro capabilities plus a full range of other useful features. The total cost was less than 1/3 the price you paid for the Navy you returned and, IMO, well worth it when compared to other cameras. Just my .02 cents worth.

08-07-2002, 02:24 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	We will be waiting with anticipation for your first closeups Doubs! My camera is a Kodak DC4800 that can focus as close as 7 inches and has variable pixel choices up to 3.3 megapixels uncompressed... I typically shoot at 2.2 Mp for most work. <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-07-2002, 11:56 PM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	John, these are just test shots made as I try to learn about the camera and it's controls. Exposure was on auto; focus manual and I was in "Super Macro" mode that will focus down to 1 centimeter! I wasn't that close for these shots. I also used self timer to trip the shutter. This is a non-import 1906 1st Issue altered Navy reworked by Frankenschloss during or after 1939 according to the E/N and E/J proof marks. The Frankenschloss name is on the right receiver and the proof marks and caliber are on the underside of the barrel.

08-08-2002, 04:43 PM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Definitely looks like you got the hang of it... nice closeups! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-08-2002, 04:45 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Doubs, Looks like a nice looking gun. Good pics! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-08-2002, 06:14 PM	#18
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	Thanks, guys. I need to work on setting up better lighting. As crowded as my den is now, that may prove to be a trick. A "ring flash" would be perfect but they run about half of the cost of the camera! Anyway, I appreciate the compliments.

08-09-2002, 12:19 PM	#19
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Tom A.! Look in your profile.....till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />