A new one inbound; Questions from the group?

Navy · 08-12-2002, 11:12 PM

All,

I have a 1920 Commercial Navy inbound; ETA this week. Unfortunately I am slaving in the vinyards of my sponsors so I will have a bit of delayed gratification (And at 55, gratification should be instant; hell, I tell the microwave to hurry up).

In any event, when the dust settles, I intend to do my normal forensics pattern exam. Of course I will take notes on the stuff that I believe to be important.

Does the forum have any burning questions or points of observation (data points) that they wish captured and reported?

Tom A.
Your Ever So Humble Servant and Moderator; a Simple georgia Boy <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Roadkill · 08-12-2002, 11:22 PM

A major part in the enjoyment of acquiring a rare and collectible item is knowing and appreciating its value. Please take the time to inform those of us in the unwashed unfortunate and uneducated majority who wish to share your enthusiasm by enlightening us to its uniqueness.

RK

Herb · 08-12-2002, 11:34 PM

TomA, 55!! Dang youngun, whippersnapper! Just wait until you get a little older. I have a copy of 'The Navy Luger' by GÃ?Â¶rtz and Walter, plus a lot of others, I will be delighted to help you identify it if possible although this book deals mostly with the who, when and why rather than precise markings. Congrats on your rare find.

Doug G. · 08-13-2002, 01:58 AM

Tom, I'd like to see good pictures whether you keep it or not. I have only seen bad photos in books of this variation.

John Sabato · 08-13-2002, 12:33 PM

Yeah Tom, Get out the book that came with your camera and re-read the closeup mode instructions while you are waiting for delivery... A full photo layout is requested by the masses... and me! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Especially of the toggle pin head and the recess it fits into... please compare it with a small head version photographically.

Danke!

Navy · 08-13-2002, 02:14 PM

I will do a complete forensics style examination record and detailed photoshoot. I will then forward the pix to John Sabato lest I lose my imortal soul trying to upload them here.
Tom A. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

John Sabato · 08-13-2002, 04:27 PM

Thanks Tom...

I will await the photos and will post them so you can add captions... It should be a fine spread. Glad to help...Please practice on focus in the meantime [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Big Norm · 08-15-2002, 12:23 AM

I'll be waiting enthusiatically for your report so that I can compare what you say with the one that I have. Fifty-five!! Nobody lives that long.

Poor Little Polish Kid from Detroit
Big Norm

Big Norm · 08-15-2002, 01:09 AM

Oh! I noticed that John brought up some points that got me curious. My 1920 has the nitro marking and "GERMANY" on the left side and commercial style placement of a four digit serial number (868xn). It has a short frame and the rear toggle pin has a small head.

Big Norm <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Lugerdoc · 08-15-2002, 01:19 PM

Norm, Your commerical Navy sound correct for one that Stoeger or Pacific Arms installed a 6" barrel and perhaps a Navy toggle assy into a standard 20 commerical once it arrived in the US. Unfortunately, these are pretty easy to recreate. On the other hand, some call the original Navy military pistol with "Germany" import marking commerical Navys. I do not. Tom H.

bradsimpson · 08-16-2002, 02:27 AM

Tom,
Look real hard at the rear toggle. Especially the sight adjustment button. If it is bright fire-blued, with very sharp serrations, it is probably a recently manufactured toggle. A 1920 Navy can be created by putting a Navy rear toggle and a 6" barrel on a 1920 Commercial. Look close at the age, etc. of those 2 parts.

Big Norm · 08-16-2002, 04:34 AM

Tom,
I agree with you 100% that a military Luger with "GERMANY" stamped on the side does not constitute a commercial Luger. My Luger does not give any indication of having military markings removed. Frankly, when I bought it as well as when I examined it after I read you comments, I thought the gun is a beauty. In my computer room, the rear toggle looks authentic and the approprate parts are in the white as are the rails on the frame. The distance numbers on the sight are proper. I can not see any noticable difference in the bluing on any on the toggles parts or the receiver.
Now the bad news (for me), The bluing on the barrel did not look right in my computer room so I took it outside. Sure enough, the bluing was not correct in comparision to the rest of the gun. As a matter of fact, there is a slight tinge of redness showing through. The little scratch mark on the underside of the barrel and the receiver does not line up right either. The underside of the barrel has the crown nitro mark and the serial number. But the serial number on the frame also contains a small cap etched "n" but the barrel does not.
Right now, I am going to pour myself a brewski and examine the size of the numbering on the front of the frame and the rear toggle. I believe they are too large. But It does not look like they were ground down and new numbers added. The front of the frame and the receiver rails line up nicely.
Tom, this hurts because it looks like a very nice commercial. But thanks anyway. Any more comments will be appreciated. But my brewski is getting warm and I need it.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 08-17-2002, 02:38 AM

Lugerdoc,
I have this gut feeling that this gun was totally assembled from the spare parts bins. My reasoning is that the barrel has a serial number and a nitro proof on its underside and the lettering in the serial number are the proper size. But the front of the frame and the rear of the rear toggle have serial numbers that are larger than normal in comparision to a war year naval Luger but both are the same size. I think that they were numbered at the same time. Contrary to Lugers at Random (page 182), my Luger has nitro marks but no military marks. I can not explain the bluing being a tad thin on the barrel and the alignment marks not being right, they clearly were done separately. But, this is a fine example on a post war 1920 commercial navy Luger. Its a beaut.
Big Norm <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Lugerdoc · 08-17-2002, 10:28 AM

Norm, I would expect the frame and rear toggle serials to be the 4mm high DWM die set, as opposed to the 2mm size used on most small parts. Tom H.

Silvano · 08-19-2002, 10:34 PM

Hello Tom, and thanks for the great help.
The question I have, is regarding the rifleing.
What are the twists per inch, and how many grooves? What is correct, and how do you tell?
Thanks again.

Big Norm · 08-23-2002, 04:44 AM

Tom,
I looked around the house to measure to size on the lettering on my 1920 navy commercial and could not find anything. I believe you are right about the lettering size. But while I was comparing lettering sizes on some other navies that I have, I found something that surprised me. I have a 1917 navy that I believe is a Weimar Era rework (dull old black reblue). The lettering on the front on the frame and the rear toggle were the same large size as on my 1920 commercial. As with the commercial, the front of the frame and the rails of the receiver aligned nicely and the rear toggle looks authentic. But the locking bolt and the trigger also have the large lettering. And the little scratches on the underside of the barrel and the receiver align nicely.
Big Norm

Navy · 08-23-2002, 08:34 AM

All,

As the Navy has yet to arrive and I am in the "multi-task" mode (serving 3 clients at once, or as Kyrie refers to it"A consulting state of grace") i may be somewhat delayed in conducting and posting the results of the exam. Rest assurred,however, I will get it done as well as respond to your questions.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

08-12-2002, 11:12 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	A new one inbound; Questions from the group? All, I have a 1920 Commercial Navy inbound; ETA this week. Unfortunately I am slaving in the vinyards of my sponsors so I will have a bit of delayed gratification (And at 55, gratification should be instant; hell, I tell the microwave to hurry up). In any event, when the dust settles, I intend to do my normal forensics pattern exam. Of course I will take notes on the stuff that I believe to be important. Does the forum have any burning questions or points of observation (data points) that they wish captured and reported? Tom A. Your Ever So Humble Servant and Moderator; a Simple georgia Boy <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

08-12-2002, 11:34 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	TomA, 55!! Dang youngun, whippersnapper! Just wait until you get a little older. I have a copy of 'The Navy Luger' by GÃ?Â¶rtz and Walter, plus a lot of others, I will be delighted to help you identify it if possible although this book deals mostly with the who, when and why rather than precise markings. Congrats on your rare find. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-13-2002, 01:58 AM	#4
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Tom, I'd like to see good pictures whether you keep it or not. I have only seen bad photos in books of this variation. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

08-13-2002, 12:33 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Yeah Tom, Get out the book that came with your camera and re-read the closeup mode instructions while you are waiting for delivery... A full photo layout is requested by the masses... and me! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Especially of the toggle pin head and the recess it fits into... please compare it with a small head version photographically. Danke! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-13-2002, 04:27 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Thanks Tom... I will await the photos and will post them so you can add captions... It should be a fine spread. Glad to help...Please practice on focus in the meantime [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-12-2002, 11:22 PM	#2
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	A major part in the enjoyment of acquiring a rare and collectible item is knowing and appreciating its value. Please take the time to inform those of us in the unwashed unfortunate and uneducated majority who wish to share your enthusiasm by enlightening us to its uniqueness. RK

08-13-2002, 02:14 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I will do a complete forensics style examination record and detailed photoshoot. I will then forward the pix to John Sabato lest I lose my imortal soul trying to upload them here. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

08-15-2002, 12:23 AM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I'll be waiting enthusiatically for your report so that I can compare what you say with the one that I have. Fifty-five!! Nobody lives that long. Poor Little Polish Kid from Detroit Big Norm

08-15-2002, 01:09 AM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Oh! I noticed that John brought up some points that got me curious. My 1920 has the nitro marking and "GERMANY" on the left side and commercial style placement of a four digit serial number (868xn). It has a short frame and the rear toggle pin has a small head. Big Norm <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

08-15-2002, 01:19 PM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Norm, Your commerical Navy sound correct for one that Stoeger or Pacific Arms installed a 6" barrel and perhaps a Navy toggle assy into a standard 20 commerical once it arrived in the US. Unfortunately, these are pretty easy to recreate. On the other hand, some call the original Navy military pistol with "Germany" import marking commerical Navys. I do not. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

08-16-2002, 02:27 AM	#11
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Tom, Look real hard at the rear toggle. Especially the sight adjustment button. If it is bright fire-blued, with very sharp serrations, it is probably a recently manufactured toggle. A 1920 Navy can be created by putting a Navy rear toggle and a 6" barrel on a 1920 Commercial. Look close at the age, etc. of those 2 parts.

08-16-2002, 04:34 AM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, I agree with you 100% that a military Luger with "GERMANY" stamped on the side does not constitute a commercial Luger. My Luger does not give any indication of having military markings removed. Frankly, when I bought it as well as when I examined it after I read you comments, I thought the gun is a beauty. In my computer room, the rear toggle looks authentic and the approprate parts are in the white as are the rails on the frame. The distance numbers on the sight are proper. I can not see any noticable difference in the bluing on any on the toggles parts or the receiver. Now the bad news (for me), The bluing on the barrel did not look right in my computer room so I took it outside. Sure enough, the bluing was not correct in comparision to the rest of the gun. As a matter of fact, there is a slight tinge of redness showing through. The little scratch mark on the underside of the barrel and the receiver does not line up right either. The underside of the barrel has the crown nitro mark and the serial number. But the serial number on the frame also contains a small cap etched "n" but the barrel does not. Right now, I am going to pour myself a brewski and examine the size of the numbering on the front of the frame and the rear toggle. I believe they are too large. But It does not look like they were ground down and new numbers added. The front of the frame and the receiver rails line up nicely. Tom, this hurts because it looks like a very nice commercial. But thanks anyway. Any more comments will be appreciated. But my brewski is getting warm and I need it. Big Norm

08-17-2002, 02:38 AM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Lugerdoc, I have this gut feeling that this gun was totally assembled from the spare parts bins. My reasoning is that the barrel has a serial number and a nitro proof on its underside and the lettering in the serial number are the proper size. But the front of the frame and the rear of the rear toggle have serial numbers that are larger than normal in comparision to a war year naval Luger but both are the same size. I think that they were numbered at the same time. Contrary to Lugers at Random (page 182), my Luger has nitro marks but no military marks. I can not explain the bluing being a tad thin on the barrel and the alignment marks not being right, they clearly were done separately. But, this is a fine example on a post war 1920 commercial navy Luger. Its a beaut. Big Norm <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

08-17-2002, 10:28 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Norm, I would expect the frame and rear toggle serials to be the 4mm high DWM die set, as opposed to the 2mm size used on most small parts. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

08-19-2002, 10:34 PM	#15
Silvano User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Tom, and thanks for the great help. The question I have, is regarding the rifleing. What are the twists per inch, and how many grooves? What is correct, and how do you tell? Thanks again.

08-23-2002, 04:44 AM	#16
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, I looked around the house to measure to size on the lettering on my 1920 navy commercial and could not find anything. I believe you are right about the lettering size. But while I was comparing lettering sizes on some other navies that I have, I found something that surprised me. I have a 1917 navy that I believe is a Weimar Era rework (dull old black reblue). The lettering on the front on the frame and the rear toggle were the same large size as on my 1920 commercial. As with the commercial, the front of the frame and the rails of the receiver aligned nicely and the rear toggle looks authentic. But the locking bolt and the trigger also have the large lettering. And the little scratches on the underside of the barrel and the receiver align nicely. Big Norm

08-23-2002, 08:34 AM	#17
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, As the Navy has yet to arrive and I am in the "multi-task" mode (serving 3 clients at once, or as Kyrie refers to it"A consulting state of grace") i may be somewhat delayed in conducting and posting the results of the exam. Rest assurred,however, I will get it done as well as respond to your questions. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />