1918 Holster ID Help...

Pete Ebbink · 08-20-2003, 01:39 AM

Just received my 1918 WWI holster from a seller in New Zealand. I will post photos tomorrow when I have natural lighting conditions.

In the meantime, could anyone help with an ID of the manufacturer ?

The marker's stamp is quite old and not very deep or sharp. Certain is the "1918" date. But the upper two lines above the date appear (to my tired eyes...) to read as :

" Rud Gulleaume "

" Mullemeier "

...but they are difficult to read and I might have some of the letters wrong...

Thanks for your help...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

pisto · 08-20-2003, 05:51 PM

Pete, the best would be to have a picture. The name: Rud Gulleaume " Mullemeier " gives no sense at that point.

Pete Ebbink · 08-20-2003, 06:15 PM

Hello Roland,

Here is a photo of the 1918 holster's ID marking. It is a difficult marking to photograph because the leather is old and the stamp is not well struck.

I have also posted 23 detailed photos in the Member's Gallery.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

policeluger · 08-20-2003, 06:35 PM

Please check again on the pictures, I go there and it says its empty....and I got too see this holster you raved about in Reno.

Pete Ebbink · 08-20-2003, 06:59 PM

Hello Howard !

Great meeting you in Reno and seeing your nice Police lugers !

I was just in the process of building the photo study in the Member's Gallery. It is all posted, there, now...

All Forum Members,

I would appreciate you thoughts on this hoslter; especially if you all see something "wrong"...

I think this is a decent, honest one...but what the heck do I know...?

It is very shiney, but I took a good leather cleaner to it and no color came off on my white cotton cleaning towel, so I do not think it has been touched up with shoe polish...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

policeluger · 08-20-2003, 07:44 PM

And it was great meeting you....but I'll still put that 1916 black holster (remember you examined it at breakfast) against yours, while yours is beautiful and near untouched, the 1916 has never had a mag in the extra mag pocket, and looks as if belt loops have never been use....just a proud parent.

Pete Ebbink · 08-20-2003, 07:46 PM

Absolutely...Howard, your holster wins...hands down... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

But I am very partial to brown leather...so I would not want to trade...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 08-20-2003, 08:08 PM

Pete,
This is just a guess, but I think the stamping is Rud. Guilleaume - Mulheimern. This would make it Rudolph Guilleaume possibly associated with the city of Mulheim on the Ruhr river. Guilleaume looks a lot like what I remember the French spelling of Wilhelm to be. I have a book written in French (unfortunately in storage at the present time, so I can't look it up) on pickelhauben, and I believe when they write about the Kaiser Wilhelm collection at Dorn, Holland, they refer to "Kaiser Guilleaume"

RockinWR · 08-20-2003, 11:45 PM

Pete,
* FWIW: Klaus Merzbach, in an old AutoMag posting, lists "Rud. Guiremand, Mulheim RH." as a Luger holster producer.
* Unsure how this is related; but, John Walter's TLB has listing (G91) Guiremand on Pg. 135. The explanation reads: "F. Guiremand, Berlin. According to marks on the holster, all dated 1918. Guiremand traded from 'Berlin S.W.'; but, little else is known. Trading probably ceased in the early years of the Weimar Republic. {NOTE: Various alternative renderings of the company name have been offered}".
* I'd question this last name (above) as Ron has offered some tantalizing recollections and is rarely wrong. But, at least, I think we got the city pinned down.
* As is often the case with old WWI holster markings, the longer I stare at them in just the right light late at night, the more they begin to spell Bud Weiser, Hein-eken, or M.ichelob. <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />

Respectfully,
Bob

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2003, 01:57 AM

Fellows,

Thanks so much for shedding some ID-light on my 1918 holster.

I am sort of "backing into" a complete rig. I have a very nice Erfurt spare magazine, a real Erfurt take-down tool, and now this period-correct holster. Now I need to hunt down a nice 1911 or 1912 Erfurt pistol with one matching magazine and my "backwards" rig will be complete...

Thanks, again, for the holster help...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 08-21-2003, 02:06 AM

Rockin WR,
Good going, now we are getting somewhere. Instead of Mulheimern it very well may be "Mulheim RH" which perhaps is Mulheim Ruhr Hessen (Mulheim is in the state of Hesse on the Ruhr river). I still think the name is probably Rudolph (or Rudolf) Guilleaume.

John Sabato · 08-21-2003, 10:33 AM

Here is the photo that Pete posted enhanced, sharpened and negativized... Maybe this can help determine the content of the stamp.

I would have to agree with Ron Wood that the stamp reads:

Rud. Guilleaume
Mulheim RH
1918

pisto · 08-21-2003, 11:48 AM

John, congradulations for such a good idea with the pictures!

Came to the same result! Except the part below.
It is saying: MÃ??LHEIM RN.

MÃ?Â¼lheim is a city and RN. is the short form for the river Rhine.

The name: Rud Guilleaume still makes me sorrows - it is not a "really" German name?

John Sabato · 08-21-2003, 12:10 PM

Roland... thanks for catching that RN instead of RH...

I suspect that Herr Guilleaume is really halb-deutsch...with a French father... or perhaps a Frenchman whose family emigrated to industrialized Germany many years before the first world war.

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2003, 12:21 PM

Isn't the city of Mulheim near both the French and the Switzerland borders...?

So maybe descendants of a French or Swiss family working in Germany's leather industry would be reasonable...(?)

What do you folks think about the high-gloss finish on this holster? It reminds me of what we call "patent leather" here in the States.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

lugerholsterrepair · 08-21-2003, 01:19 PM

Pete, Very nice example of top quality turn of the Century German craftsmanship.

The leather sheen seen on German holsters of this era is quite common if it has not been scuffed off. Yours has seen little use so it is still there.

It is not patent leather at all. Patent leather is a different process altogether . From what I have been able to piece together of the process, the Germans dyed and polished the hide and then cut and formed the pieces. This enabled them to machine polish the surface of the hide to a high gloss. Polishing the epidermis side of the leather to a high gloss is possible to a high degree as is evidenced by your holster. It compresses the surface holes into a solid non pourous surface that shines. If you dye the surface without polishing, it is matt, like the difference between a phosphate metal finish and a high polish blue. .Nice find! Jerry Burney

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2003, 01:53 PM

Hello Jerry,

Thanks so much for the great info. on leather working techniques...

Let me know if you will be attending the up-coming gun show in Las Vegas in October 2003. If so, I can plan to bring this piece along if you would like to see it in person.

This one was on e-Bay and I ended up paying $ 355.00 (which might be high...) but I do not usually see this level of condition in holsters at the gun shows or shops I frequent...

Took Tom A.'s advice; that good leather should be picked up regardless of the price...(Tom was also kind enough to stop bidding against me... <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> )

Thanks again to all for your help !!!

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 08-21-2003, 02:00 PM

I was in error about MÃ?Â¼lheim being in Hesse, it is actually in Westphalia, which is between Hesse and the borders of Belgium and the Netherlands. With the languages of Belgium being Flemish and French, Guilleaum could have been an immigrant from that country. There very probably is more than one MÃ?Â¼lheim in Germany, but the major city is on the Ruhr (MÃ?Â¼lheim an der Ruhr), which feeds into the Rhein from the East.

lugerholsterrepair · 08-21-2003, 08:30 PM

Pete, You are more than welcome...I do not know as yet if I will make the Reno show in Nov. Jan Still just Emailed me to ask the same thing. I really can't say as I have some personal business to attend to so it will have to get a little closer to Nov. for me to make up my mind. Jerry Burney

George Anderson · 08-21-2003, 11:36 PM

Mulhouse is in Alsace and as such was within the Imperial German territory of Alsace-Lorrain governed by Germany between 1871 and 1919. It sits on the Rhein and was held by the Germans throughout the First War except for a pathetic twenty-four hour period around August 7th 1914 when the frog general Bonneau's VII Corps captured it. Given the French name of the saddler, this may well be the place as the German, and ethnically correct, treatment of the name would be either Muhlhausen or Muhlheim (both with an umlaut over the u)

08-20-2003, 01:39 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1918 Holster ID Help... Just received my 1918 WWI holster from a seller in New Zealand. I will post photos tomorrow when I have natural lighting conditions. In the meantime, could anyone help with an ID of the manufacturer ? The marker's stamp is quite old and not very deep or sharp. Certain is the "1918" date. But the upper two lines above the date appear (to my tired eyes...) to read as : " Rud Gulleaume " " Mullemeier " ...but they are difficult to read and I might have some of the letters wrong... Thanks for your help... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-20-2003, 08:08 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Pete, This is just a guess, but I think the stamping is Rud. Guilleaume - Mulheimern. This would make it Rudolph Guilleaume possibly associated with the city of Mulheim on the Ruhr river. Guilleaume looks a lot like what I remember the French spelling of Wilhelm to be. I have a book written in French (unfortunately in storage at the present time, so I can't look it up) on pickelhauben, and I believe when they write about the Kaiser Wilhelm collection at Dorn, Holland, they refer to "Kaiser Guilleaume" __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-21-2003, 02:06 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Rockin WR, Good going, now we are getting somewhere. Instead of Mulheimern it very well may be "Mulheim RH" which perhaps is Mulheim Ruhr Hessen (Mulheim is in the state of Hesse on the Ruhr river). I still think the name is probably Rudolph (or Rudolf) Guilleaume. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-21-2003, 10:33 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Here is the photo that Pete posted enhanced, sharpened and negativized... Maybe this can help determine the content of the stamp. I would have to agree with Ron Wood that the stamp reads: Rud. Guilleaume Mulheim RH 1918 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-21-2003, 12:10 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Roland... thanks for catching that RN instead of RH... I suspect that Herr Guilleaume is really halb-deutsch...with a French father... or perhaps a Frenchman whose family emigrated to industrialized Germany many years before the first world war. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-20-2003, 05:51 PM	#2
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, the best would be to have a picture. The name: Rud Gulleaume " Mullemeier " gives no sense at that point.

08-20-2003, 06:15 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Roland, Here is a photo of the 1918 holster's ID marking. It is a difficult marking to photograph because the leather is old and the stamp is not well struck. I have also posted 23 detailed photos in the Member's Gallery. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-20-2003, 06:35 PM	#4
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Please check again on the pictures, I go there and it says its empty....and I got too see this holster you raved about in Reno.

08-20-2003, 06:59 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Howard ! Great meeting you in Reno and seeing your nice Police lugers ! I was just in the process of building the photo study in the Member's Gallery. It is all posted, there, now... All Forum Members, I would appreciate you thoughts on this hoslter; especially if you all see something "wrong"... I think this is a decent, honest one...but what the heck do I know...? It is very shiney, but I took a good leather cleaner to it and no color came off on my white cotton cleaning towel, so I do not think it has been touched up with shoe polish... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-20-2003, 07:44 PM	#6
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	And it was great meeting you....but I'll still put that 1916 black holster (remember you examined it at breakfast) against yours, while yours is beautiful and near untouched, the 1916 has never had a mag in the extra mag pocket, and looks as if belt loops have never been use....just a proud parent.

08-20-2003, 07:46 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Absolutely...Howard, your holster wins...hands down... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> But I am very partial to brown leather...so I would not want to trade... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-20-2003, 11:45 PM	#9
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Pete, * FWIW: Klaus Merzbach, in an old AutoMag posting, lists "Rud. Guiremand, Mulheim RH." as a Luger holster producer. * Unsure how this is related; but, John Walter's TLB has listing (G91) Guiremand on Pg. 135. The explanation reads: "F. Guiremand, Berlin. According to marks on the holster, all dated 1918. Guiremand traded from 'Berlin S.W.'; but, little else is known. Trading probably ceased in the early years of the Weimar Republic. {NOTE: Various alternative renderings of the company name have been offered}". * I'd question this last name (above) as Ron has offered some tantalizing recollections and is rarely wrong. But, at least, I think we got the city pinned down. * As is often the case with old WWI holster markings, the longer I stare at them in just the right light late at night, the more they begin to spell Bud Weiser, Hein-eken, or M.ichelob. <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> Respectfully, Bob

08-21-2003, 01:57 AM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Fellows, Thanks so much for shedding some ID-light on my 1918 holster. I am sort of "backing into" a complete rig. I have a very nice Erfurt spare magazine, a real Erfurt take-down tool, and now this period-correct holster. Now I need to hunt down a nice 1911 or 1912 Erfurt pistol with one matching magazine and my "backwards" rig will be complete... Thanks, again, for the holster help... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-21-2003, 11:48 AM	#13
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, congradulations for such a good idea with the pictures! Came to the same result! Except the part below. It is saying: MÃ??LHEIM RN. MÃ?Â¼lheim is a city and RN. is the short form for the river Rhine. The name: Rud Guilleaume still makes me sorrows - it is not a "really" German name?

08-21-2003, 12:21 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Isn't the city of Mulheim near both the French and the Switzerland borders...? So maybe descendants of a French or Swiss family working in Germany's leather industry would be reasonable...(?) What do you folks think about the high-gloss finish on this holster? It reminds me of what we call "patent leather" here in the States. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-21-2003, 01:19 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Pete, Very nice example of top quality turn of the Century German craftsmanship. The leather sheen seen on German holsters of this era is quite common if it has not been scuffed off. Yours has seen little use so it is still there. It is not patent leather at all. Patent leather is a different process altogether . From what I have been able to piece together of the process, the Germans dyed and polished the hide and then cut and formed the pieces. This enabled them to machine polish the surface of the hide to a high gloss. Polishing the epidermis side of the leather to a high gloss is possible to a high degree as is evidenced by your holster. It compresses the surface holes into a solid non pourous surface that shines. If you dye the surface without polishing, it is matt, like the difference between a phosphate metal finish and a high polish blue. .Nice find! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-21-2003, 01:53 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jerry, Thanks so much for the great info. on leather working techniques... Let me know if you will be attending the up-coming gun show in Las Vegas in October 2003. If so, I can plan to bring this piece along if you would like to see it in person. This one was on e-Bay and I ended up paying $ 355.00 (which might be high...) but I do not usually see this level of condition in holsters at the gun shows or shops I frequent... Took Tom A.'s advice; that good leather should be picked up regardless of the price...(Tom was also kind enough to stop bidding against me... <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> ) Thanks again to all for your help !!! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-21-2003, 02:00 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	I was in error about MÃ?Â¼lheim being in Hesse, it is actually in Westphalia, which is between Hesse and the borders of Belgium and the Netherlands. With the languages of Belgium being Flemish and French, Guilleaum could have been an immigrant from that country. There very probably is more than one MÃ?Â¼lheim in Germany, but the major city is on the Ruhr (MÃ?Â¼lheim an der Ruhr), which feeds into the Rhein from the East. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-21-2003, 08:30 PM	#19
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Pete, You are more than welcome...I do not know as yet if I will make the Reno show in Nov. Jan Still just Emailed me to ask the same thing. I really can't say as I have some personal business to attend to so it will have to get a little closer to Nov. for me to make up my mind. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-21-2003, 11:36 PM	#20
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	Mulhouse is in Alsace and as such was within the Imperial German territory of Alsace-Lorrain governed by Germany between 1871 and 1919. It sits on the Rhein and was held by the Germans throughout the First War except for a pathetic twenty-four hour period around August 7th 1914 when the frog general Bonneau's VII Corps captured it. Given the French name of the saddler, this may well be the place as the German, and ethnically correct, treatment of the name would be either Muhlhausen or Muhlheim (both with an umlaut over the u)