Krieghoff E2 proof? - Page 2

Dwight Gruber · 08-09-2005, 09:43 PM

Paging through "Weimar Lugers" and "Third Reich Lugers" is unavailing. Costanzo only notes that c/N can be found several different places on a Luger, including the right frame rail. He did -not- document it on the right receiver.

On a partly remembered hunch I pulled out my Simson rework of a DWM First Issue; it has a c/N upright on the right frame by the takedown lever, another position Costanzo does not document.

I'm not sure what this adds to the discussion or means, except that you have quite a mystery here.

--Dwight

Walt NW · 08-10-2005, 08:09 AM

Appreciate all the effort. Simpson has a DMW/Krieghoff rework on their site that is marked sold that is much like mine, citing the right side receiver horizonal crown N but also notating the E/2 stamp, which I don't seem to have. The Luger curse strikes again but guess this is what sets these beauties apart from all other hand guns and makes them so interesting to get involved with. Thanks again.

John D. · 08-10-2005, 10:22 AM

Hi Guys....

We are getting "really lost" here - by "munging together" (my word

) several HK variations.. Let me try to explain....

HK reworked many types - the majority were DWM Lugers in the "i" range. These "reworks" are very different then their "commercial" series.. OK - so let's put aside their "commercial series" for a moment and focus on their "reworks".

These will have a CROWN N, again - on either the left side of the receiver only (for a vertical CROWN N) or 2 CROWN Ns if they were horizontal (on on the left of the rail and one on the left of the receiver). Some "reworks" may also have the original toggle and NOT have *any* CROWN N, and may have an encircled HK and/or other stampings...

With me so far??

Now - what Simpsons sold is NOT what Walt has - and the two are very different..

What Simpson's has: Some reworks will also have an E/2 on the RIGHT side of the receiver - but that is NOT a CROWN N (which, on the HK on Simpson's site) the CROWN N again - appears on the LEFT side of the reciever and rail (and since it is horizontal, BOTH rail & reciever have the CROWN N..). In fact with both the CROWN N and the E/2, Simpsons does have a fairly rare rework variation...

What Walt has: I'm not sure yet??!

Anyway - I hope this helps!!

John D.

Tomathvl · 08-10-2005, 10:55 AM

John,
"munging together" Pretty much makes sense to me; but then I've got Polish blood in me.
Tom

John D. · 08-10-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomathvl
John,
"munging together" Pretty much makes sense to me.....

Isn't the Internet a wonderful place?? I think I actually found a definition for "munging"...

Ready?? "The term munging probably derives from the acronym mung (pronounced just as it looks), which stands for "mash until no good."" Now - I've never met any mash I didn't like, so I'm not certain that definition is quite correct...

Heh!

John D.

Walt NW · 08-10-2005, 11:43 AM

John,
Think "munging" says it all. FYI. back in 2000, I blew ten bucks and sent a "firearms inquiry" to the folks at Blue Book concerning this gun. It went nowhere and they gave up on it. Strangely enough, however, I found one gentleman with an identical piece after kicking it around through dealers all over the country, and he turned out to be a new collector with his first Luger who had just signed on to the forum. If Rick K. is still around, he has a virtual twin to mine, except his is a 1916 double date and mine is 1917.
Several of the dealer inquiries resulted in E-mails accusing me of trying to play games with a fraudulent piece. It cameas a relief to meet Rick and find a matching gun. Thanks for all the effort on this.

Navy · 08-10-2005, 12:06 PM

Among Army aviators in Asia, mung was the mystical substance resulting from monkey miscarriages...normally used to describe a particularly foul concoction served up at a well lubricated hooch party.

Tom A

John D. · 08-10-2005, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Walt NW
John,
.....Thanks for all the effort on this.

Hi Walt.!

It's a pleasure. Can you do me a favor and take a micrometer and measure the Crown N? I want the exact overall "height and width" in millimeters, when you have a moment.....

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom A
Among Army aviators in Asia, mung was the mystical substance...

Umm... Tom???

This is FAR TOO much information!!!

John D.

Walt NW · 08-10-2005, 08:50 PM

John,
Alas, I must admit that in living in a home for over 30 years that I thought had acquired every conceivable usefull or useless object known to mankind, there is not a micrometer in the house. However, using my trusty millimeter ruler that has served me well for many years of stamp collecting, what I am getting is a width of 1 millimeter and a hight, from bottom of the N to the tip of the crown, of 4 millimeters. Much appreciation for all the time and effort you're putting into this.

John D. · 08-10-2005, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Walt NW
John,
Alas, I must admit that in living in a home for over 30 years that I thought had acquired every conceivable usefull or useless object known to mankind, .....

Hmmm - apparently - you haven't met my ex-wife....

Seriously though.....

I believe you have a DWM Crown N rather then a Krieghoff "Crown N" - which would explain as well, why it is mis-struck for Krieghoff (on your right side) and as I stated above. Unfortunately - I do not have the source nor the reasons as to the origins of your DWM Luger - which began life as a Military and then made it into the commercial world.

Hope this helps!

John D.

Walt NW · 08-10-2005, 10:59 PM

What-ever and why-for, just another example of the wonderful world of Lugers, John. Thanks much for all the time you put into this thing.

Walt

John D. · 08-10-2005, 11:08 PM

Hi Walt!

My sincerest Thanks right back to you... While I love Krieghoffs and have been in that world for more than a few years - I'm still learning about all the various Luger variations outside HK...

Yep - it's about this wonderful world of Lugers and collecting...

My thanks again!

John

08-09-2005, 09:43 PM	#21
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Paging through "Weimar Lugers" and "Third Reich Lugers" is unavailing. Costanzo only notes that c/N can be found several different places on a Luger, including the right frame rail. He did -not- document it on the right receiver. On a partly remembered hunch I pulled out my Simson rework of a DWM First Issue; it has a c/N upright on the right frame by the takedown lever, another position Costanzo does not document. I'm not sure what this adds to the discussion or means, except that you have quite a mystery here. --Dwight

08-10-2005, 08:09 AM	#22
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Appreciate all the effort. Simpson has a DMW/Krieghoff rework on their site that is marked sold that is much like mine, citing the right side receiver horizonal crown N but also notating the E/2 stamp, which I don't seem to have. The Luger curse strikes again but guess this is what sets these beauties apart from all other hand guns and makes them so interesting to get involved with. Thanks again.

08-10-2005, 10:22 AM	#23
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Guys.... We are getting "really lost" here - by "munging together" (my word ) several HK variations.. Let me try to explain.... HK reworked many types - the majority were DWM Lugers in the "i" range. These "reworks" are very different then their "commercial" series.. OK - so let's put aside their "commercial series" for a moment and focus on their "reworks". These will have a CROWN N, again - on either the left side of the receiver only (for a vertical CROWN N) or 2 CROWN Ns if they were horizontal (on on the left of the rail and one on the left of the receiver). Some "reworks" may also have the original toggle and NOT have any CROWN N, and may have an encircled HK and/or other stampings... With me so far?? Now - what Simpsons sold is NOT what Walt has - and the two are very different.. What Simpson's has: Some reworks will also have an E/2 on the RIGHT side of the receiver - but that is NOT a CROWN N (which, on the HK on Simpson's site) the CROWN N again - appears on the LEFT side of the reciever and rail (and since it is horizontal, BOTH rail & reciever have the CROWN N..). In fact with both the CROWN N and the E/2, Simpsons does have a fairly rare rework variation... What Walt has: I'm not sure yet??! Anyway - I hope this helps!! John D.

08-10-2005, 10:55 AM	#24
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	John, "munging together" Pretty much makes sense to me; but then I've got Polish blood in me. Tom

08-10-2005, 11:43 AM	#26
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, Think "munging" says it all. FYI. back in 2000, I blew ten bucks and sent a "firearms inquiry" to the folks at Blue Book concerning this gun. It went nowhere and they gave up on it. Strangely enough, however, I found one gentleman with an identical piece after kicking it around through dealers all over the country, and he turned out to be a new collector with his first Luger who had just signed on to the forum. If Rick K. is still around, he has a virtual twin to mine, except his is a 1916 double date and mine is 1917. Several of the dealer inquiries resulted in E-mails accusing me of trying to play games with a fraudulent piece. It cameas a relief to meet Rick and find a matching gun. Thanks for all the effort on this.

08-10-2005, 12:06 PM	#27
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Among Army aviators in Asia, mung was the mystical substance resulting from monkey miscarriages...normally used to describe a particularly foul concoction served up at a well lubricated hooch party. Tom A

08-10-2005, 08:50 PM	#29
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, Alas, I must admit that in living in a home for over 30 years that I thought had acquired every conceivable usefull or useless object known to mankind, there is not a micrometer in the house. However, using my trusty millimeter ruler that has served me well for many years of stamp collecting, what I am getting is a width of 1 millimeter and a hight, from bottom of the N to the tip of the crown, of 4 millimeters. Much appreciation for all the time and effort you're putting into this.

08-10-2005, 10:59 PM	#31
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What-ever and why-for, just another example of the wonderful world of Lugers, John. Thanks much for all the time you put into this thing. Walt

08-10-2005, 11:08 PM	#32
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Walt! My sincerest Thanks right back to you... While I love Krieghoffs and have been in that world for more than a few years - I'm still learning about all the various Luger variations outside HK... Yep - it's about this wonderful world of Lugers and collecting... My thanks again! John